Amanda Young

Hello, I'm Amanda Young. You are listening to the abrdn Sustainability Inspires podcast, discussing all things relating to sustainability and responsible investing. I am delighted to have with me today as my guest, Dr. Jeremy Leggett.

Jeremy is the Founder and Executive Director of Highlands Rewilding. This is a startup with a mission of becoming one of the most impactful accelerators of nature-based solutions in the world.

Describing himself as a social entrepreneur, author and climate campaigner, Jeremy has had an extensive and illustrious career spanning the setting up of businesses, advising governments to campaigning for a greener world.

 

Now, given how busy you are, Jeremy, it is an absolute honour to have you with us today. Welcome to our podcast.

 

Jeremy Leggett

Well, thank you very much. I'm delighted to be here.

 

Amanda Young

So perhaps we can start with Highlands Rewilding? What is this? And what are you trying to achieve from your work?

 

Jeremy Leggett

Well, as you will know, the market in nature recovery is embryonic. But we need it to grow exponentially if we're to deal with the monster problem of biodiversity collapse. And also keep consistent with all the things we have to do on climate meltdown.

So, we're trying to break through on the frontier of that market, motivated by the kinds of things that made me a climate campaigner but absolutely focused on the business opportunity that is arising, because of this rising tide of concern and also awareness that actually, you know, people, pensioners, investors can make a lot of money once and if we get this, this market going.

 

Amanda Young

Now, I've read that once you had a highly lucrative career as an expert consultant in the oil and gas industry and just walked out on it, to do what you are doing right now, is that really right? Maybe you can tell us a little bit more about that?

 

Jeremy Leggett

Well, I'm afraid that is right. I taught at the Royal School of Mines at Imperial College for more than 10 years and I really was a creature of the oil and gas industry.

I consulted a lot for it. Much of my research was funded by BP and Shell, among others. And I was a very different creature in those days. But the mistake I made was to do research on the geological history of the oceans, geological oceanography, as it's known.

And there I sort of developed, you know, sense of the natural rhythms of the planet and the carbon cycle and became very worried early on before it was fashionable, in the mid-1980s about climate change.

And that's why I walked out on that old life, and have in one form or another ever since, as you very kindly pointed out at the beginning, have been trying to contribute to the fixing of the problem.

 

Amanda Young

Well, it's great to have campaigners like you helping us solve some of these problems. But perhaps we can touch a little bit on exactly what it is you do at Highlands Rewilding? So, what does your activity do that makes you different from people who maybe just buy up chunks of land and plant trees to offset carbon elsewhere?

 

Jeremy Leggett

Well, we're doing precisely that, but motivated by the need to really score runs in dealing with these monster threats. But we're not really cutting any corners in making a business, we know we have to make a profitable, healthy business that people are going to want to invest in.

And so, we're focusing on that in 3 areas of land in Scotland, spread across the highlands, and on all of them, and on all of these areas of land we’re sequestering carbon and making biodiversity grow in the best ways we can through land management and actually operating them not just as ways to monetise natural capital once the markets up and running, but also as open-air laboratories, so we can contribute to confidence building not only in our own carbon credits and biodiversity credits, but also in the wider industry and market and make the whole thing more investable for people and contribute to building sustainability in the market going forward.

 

 

Amanda Young

So, in your activities in my reading and my research before inviting you to join us, I've read that people may have thought of you to be a wolf in sheep's clothing, as was quoted, particularly from those focused on rural communities in Scotland. How are you putting communities at the heart of what you do?

 

Jeremy Leggett

Our stated purpose and the mantra we constantly repeat in Highlands Rewilding is that our reason for existing is nature, recovery and community prosperity through rewilding taken to scale in Scotland and then beyond.

And the end community prosperity piece is because I don’t think anyone pretty much who studies these monster problems of climate change and biodiversity collapse, cannot escape the conclusion that local communities have to be mobilised, the full fighting force of local communities has to be brought to bear.

And they have to have real agency on that. So, this is true, whether you're talking about the Amazonian rainforest, or the Highlands of Scotland. And the sad truth is that many of these places agency is going backwards, and people are being disenfranchised. And so, we tried to reverse that. And the way you were doing it is to structure the company to be quite literally a creature of these local communities where we work.

So right now, we are in startup phase, we are embryonic, there are 28 of us in the team, and 17 live and work in or very close to the communities where we operate. So, we're a creature in that way. But also, we're very actively engaged and particularly so in the third of our 3 areas of operation, the Tayvallich community on the west coast of Scotland, where we've agreed a memorandum of understanding with the community, that's pretty groundbreaking.

 

Amanda Young

Can you tell us a little bit about that memorandum of understanding and what makes it groundbreaking?

 

Jeremy Leggett

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's got 24 action items.  The beating heart of it is a quid pro quo where we say, look, we're really serious about helping you deliver community prosperity, solving your problems, and you know, the quid pro quo is you help us to the extent that you can deliver the ethical levels of profitability we'll need to succeed as a business.

And so, among those 24 action items, there's the creation of an Estate Management Board that's got 7 representatives from the community in it, 3 from the company, it's met 5 times, so far, it's fully functional, and actually a lot of fun.

And it's got real soft power. I mean, the hard power, if you view it that way, is with the main board of Highlands Rewilding, you know, we're the ones who go to jail if we're, you know, get things terribly wrong.

But the community, you know, the soft power is, would we do anything or want to do anything on that, on that estate that didn't have the approval and involvement of the community? Of course, we wouldn't.

So that's real agency and it's quite rare. And I'm thrilled with the way it's going down, not just in the community, but with the Scottish Government, and also the private financial institutions that we’re seeking to come to the party. Because the view there, you know, that there hasn't yet been major investments in nature recovery, 8 figure sums and so forth. But they're coming, I think they're coming soon.

And the view is, you know, we can't sit down in London as investors and try and buy up Scotland and manage it from afar, that's just not going to work in, in the current world, it's not going to work, period. And so, partnering with us, you know, hopefully, begins to look attractive.

 

Amanda Young

Now, you've had an extensive career, and no doubt face some real challenges along the way, given what you've been trying to focus on. And perhaps you can touch on some of these challenges or some of the barriers you have had in your career and your journey.

And tell us about maybe some of the biggest of these and what you did to overcome them. It'd be quite nice if there's any advice you can give to our listeners who might be starting out early in their own careers.

 

Jeremy Leggett

Sure, I mean, there's a standout problem that I and my compadres have faced all the way along in this. And it's the extensive rearguard action of the fossil fuel industries and particularly the oil and gas industry, in defending their perceptions of their vested interests.

And I had hoped to encounter a different outcome, obviously, when I started out on this and various places along the course, thought that things were changing, particularly around 2000 with BP, and their, do you remember the beyond petroleum phase?

 

Amanda Young

I do. Yes, I was around then.

 

Jeremy Leggett

And 25 years later, is BP beyond petroleum? I don't think so. And you know though, I could, there are so many war stories, it’s been a great disappointment to me.

And so, I, you know, having once been, as it were a member of that community and knowing a good few of the senior players within it. So, my advice to young people used to be, you know, they'd say to me, well, should I join the oil and gas industry?

And I would say, yes, of course, because there are lots of smart people, they love their children as much as we do. And, you know, if you can, you can work for change, from within. And now that now that advice has changed, and it's some form of, no don’t, you don't want to join them. You just want to try and stop them.

 

Amanda Young

Okay, so thinking about where they want to actually work as opposed to…

 

Jeremy Leggett

…Indeed, and of course, then there are more and more opportunities, as it were, on the light side, in all sorts of areas of business that are really making headway on these problems.

 

Amanda Young

Okay. One area of business is financial services. Obviously, this is a financial services podcast. And I'm really keen to get your view on how the financial services industry can play a role in supporting your goals to generate positive climate and community outcomes.

 

Jeremy Leggett

Well, I use the frontier and the financial institutions have to start investing at scale. 

We have the estimates of what it's going to take to achieve the national targets in, for example, Kunming-Montreal Global Biodiversity Treaty, which most governments have signed. And they’re pledged to reverse the collapse of biodiversity, which is a feature of ecosystems worldwide now. 

That's a huge target. And the Green Finance Institute, for example, has estimated that in Scotland alone, by 2030, the investment to do that would be on the order of 20 billion pounds.  And you know, that’s an Everest of a target, and we're barely in the foothills. So that's the name of the game.

But I'm super excited about it because in many ways, it reminds me of somewhere I've been before in 2006, in the solar industry, in solar revolution, the global market hadn't taken off, it hadn't reached its tipping point. The financial institutions hadn't come to the party. But they were saying to us, then, well you know, okay, we know it's coming.

We know there's going to be a massive growth market, the costs solar are plunging and we know we're nearly there, but we're looking at each other wondering who's going to go first?  And who's going to be the first wildebeest to jump into the crocodile infested river?

 

Amanda Young

A first mover advantage, if you’d like?

 

Jeremy Leggett

Well, that's what we say. In actual fact, there is a view that the first guy, the first wildebeest, who jumps in the river is guaranteed to get to the over side because the crocodiles wait for the other ones to… No, that's not true. That's not an appropriate analogue, but you see what I mean.

And you know, it feels and smells the same to me as 2006, in solar, you can't take that analogy too far, because solar is hardware and you know, what we're doing in the woods and peatlands and offshore, in the kelp forests, all that stuff is software if you like.

And also, biodiversity is not a simple thing to measure in terms of real uplifts, whereas solar just bangs out kilowatt hours. But I do think, it does feel the same. And I do think if we did this year from now, the first major financial institution will have invested at 8 figures.

 

Amanda Young

I think that's an exciting place to be. Now, at this stage of our podcast, I like to ask my guests to inspire our listeners. So, an example of something that has inspired them on their sustainability journey. It could be a book, a person, a film, or an event.  Have you got something you could share with our listeners?

 

Jeremy Leggett

Yes, I do, and it was material in making me switch as it were, from my strength, area of strength, which had become solar and renewables. You know, I knew a lot about it by the end of that adventure into something totally different. But similar in terms of what the outcome will be, if we get the nature recovery market right.

I could have stayed in solar when Solar Century was sold in 2020, to Statkraft, you know, and that would have been the safe thing to do. And I'm sure I could have found a way of continuing to contribute. But I decided to switch totally. And the reason for doing that primarily was a book I read by the appropriately named, Isabella tree, the legendary rewilder down in on the Knepp estate in Sussex, and it's called Wilding. 

And if you haven't read it, it's inspirational. It's a wonderful story of 20 years of real experience in rewilding.  And she and her husband Charlie Burrell have been very helpful to me in setting up Highlands Rewilding. So that's my story of a heroine who has inspired me.

 

Amanda Young

Isabella Tree, I shall add that to my list of books to read. And now we're drawing to the end of our podcast. So, I've got one final question.  What do you think the next big sustainability issue which the financial services can play a role in? In other words, what should we be watching out for?

 

Jeremy Leggett

Oh, look, this is it. I mean, I really, I would say this, wouldn't I but, its nature.  We have to engineer the system change in nature-based economies, it's as far-reaching as that. So, a value has to be placed on nature.

Everything we do has to consider it has to consider nature and rebuild what is essentially, as things stand a dying planetary system. It's huge. And that's where, if we can't finance that, then we're not going to have a viable future to do any financing in.

 

Amanda Young

Yes, one of the mantras I often use so it's lovely to hear you say that as well, Jeremy. Thank you so much for being with us today. It's been a real inspiration to have you with us and share your story to our listeners and very, very best of luck with your future endeavours.

 

Jeremy Leggett

Thank you, and thank you for inviting me.

 

Amanda Young

You've been listening to abrdn's podcast Sustainability Inspires aiming to help you get inspired and get involved. To all those who have taken time to tune in many thanks for listening and to hear more on the inspirational voices in sustainability, hit like and subscribe. All that remains for me to do now is to thank Jeremy for joining us today and to say goodbye for now.

 

Disclaimer

This podcast is provided for general information only and assumes a certain level of knowledge of financial markets. It is provided for informational purposes only and should not be considered as an offer, investment recommendation or solicitation to deal in any of the investments or products mentioned herein and does not constitute investment research. The views in this podcast are those of the contributors at the time of publication and do not necessarily reflect those of abrdn. 

The companies discussed in this podcast have been selected for illustrative purposes only or to demonstrate our investment management style and not as an investment recommendation or indication of their future performance. The value of investments and the income from them can go down as well as up and investors may make back less than the amount invested. Past performance is not a guide to future returns, return projections or estimates, and provide no guarantee of future results.