Host: Danielle Welsh Rose, Head of Sustainability Investment Specialists and APAC Sustainability

Guest: Claire O'Rourke, Journalist & Campaigner

Podcast

Danielle Welsh-Rose

Hello, I'm Danielle Welsh-Rose you are listening to abrdn’s Sustainability Inspires podcast discussing all things relating to sustainability and responsible investing.

Danielle Welsh-Rose

I'm absolutely delighted to have with me today as my guest Claire O’Rourke. Claire is an author, environmentalist, and advocate with two decades working in journalism communications and campaigns across Australia and around the world. Claire helps others take action on climate change currently as Australia Energy Transformation Programme Co-Director at the Sunrise Project, Claire's first book “Together We Can” was published by Allen & Unwin in 2022. Previously, Claire was National Director of Solar Citizens a community led renewable energy advocacy organisation. A former journalist, Claire has extensive experience advocating for social impact, including driving communications for the Every Australian Counts campaign for the National Disability Insurance Scheme. And as a senior leader at Amnesty International Australia. Claire's father worked at a coal fired power station, multiple coal fired power stations all through his career. And now she spends her days working on how we can replace them in time to avoid the worst impacts of climate change and how we can ensure workers, communities and first nations peoples share the benefits as the world quickly moves to clean, renewable energy. What a biography Claire, welcome to our podcast.

Claire O’Rourke

Thanks so much for having me on.

Danielle Welsh-Rose

I'm excited to jump in Claire, let's get started with I've heard a rumour that you are in fact, a terrible gardener. How does that work out with you being an environmentalist?

Claire O’Rourke

Yeah, I love nature, but set me loose in a garden and the best thing for me to do is actually go and dig a big hole or cut a big thing down. Like you know, that heavy lifting work and kind of conceptual work I love but when it comes to the daily habits of pruning and things, it's just not part of my life stage, I think. And also, you know, working a lot, trying to, you know, actually get emissions down is a big part of my life. I am really privileged to live on Dharawal country, which is the traditional owners of the land here, just south of Sydney. And the Dharawal is the cabbage palm which is littered through the Illawarra Escarpment rainforest just next to the beach, which is where I'm privileged to call my home. So, I'm very blessed to be surrounded by nature, but it's probably best not to let me try and manage it.

Danielle Welsh-Rose

Well, for those listening in to this podcast, you probably will have noticed our accents. We’re both Australians, we’re both located in Australia. And I think Claire has managed to paint a beautiful picture of one of the most beautiful places I think in the world. So, I've now got a very vivid picture in my mind about your location, Claire, and a little bit jealous, I have to admit. I'm interested in hearing a bit more about your book. So not only are you an advocate for climate action, but you've written a book called “Together We Can”. Can you tell us about why you decided to write this book a little bit about it?

Claire O’Rourke

Yeah, well, for folks who are listening, you probably remember the black summer bushfires of the summer of 2019 to 2020 in Australia, which destroyed about 20% of Australia's Eastern forests. And while I had already been working on climate change for some time, I was hit with a really overwhelming wave of climate grief from that event, which was really an event that traumatised our country. And it had a massive impact around the world on so many people who know and love this, this country and our landscape and our beautiful nature that we get to enjoy. And so, I started looking into that and doing some personal work in response to that. And I found from the vantage point I have working as a climate advocacy kind of specialist is that I could have had this vantage point where I could say wonderful interventions that were going on both in terms of, you know, limiting the expansion of fossil fuel development, but also on the solutions, the technology innovations, the cost curves coming down for solutions and the communities that are doing so much. And so, the book is really around how everybody can make a substantial difference wherever they are, whether it's in their homes or their workplaces and communities in their spheres of influence. But it's also in response to these rising levels of both post-traumatic stress but also pre-traumatic stress when people are considering the climate challenge and the reality of the science that we're facing. And psychologists who specialise in this area, they actually recommend taking action on climate change that's in line with your values. So, you're not sitting in doom scrolling all the time that you're you know, actually claiming your agency and doing something about the problem within your realm of influence. So, we can all do this. And there are so many examples from around Australia. I wanted to capture those, and I found it a really nourishing experience but also had a bit of a think about kind of behavioural economics and systems thinking and how we can think about our role in the this this very big problem that requires really radical solutions.

Danielle Welsh-Rose

That's so important, Claire, I think you know that doom scrolling that you referred to, and that overwhelming sense of what can little old me, do to contribute to the solution here, I think having those practical steps is vital. And so that's, you know, a little bit about your book, which sounds just absolutely fascinating. But in terms of your current role at the Sunrise Project, can you just enlighten us a little bit about what you're doing there, and what that contributes to sustainability overall, as well.

Claire O’Rourke

A lot of people think environmental advocacy is about saving trees, and it absolutely is, but we look at a kind of holistic system that really considers how can we protect the planet so people and nature can thrive. And part of that in Australia is transforming our energy system, so that our country makes a really fair contribution to keep global temperatures within 1.5 degrees, which is our obligation under the Paris Agreement. And there's lots of different facets to that work, it means ensuring policymakers and companies and investors are all pushing towards those same goals. And folks might not be aware if they're listening from other parts of the planet, but Australia has about less than a couple of percent of the world's population, but we contribute around 5% of the globe's carbon pollution. So, we make a disproportionate impact from this country. And we also have really wonderful resources in this country that can be used to accelerate the clean energy transition in a way that's fairer for people who live here. And you know, for communities that we'll be part of that transition. But, you know, we've got incredible critical minerals, resources and primary resources that we currently export around the world for primary processing. So, thinking about iron ore and bauxite, those types of resources. So, we are a critical player in terms of being able to green those primary industries, onshore, some of those secondary processing that can be powered by the plentiful renewable resources we have. And we stand to become a critical player in global supply chains. And so that's a big opportunity for our country, it's a great opportunity for the world, because we can we do have this incredible wealth of solar and wind resources. So, Australia can make a really positive difference. And so, we work on advocacy strategies that can both secure policy around that, which are, you know, the biggest kind of, you know, bang for buck results you can get, but also to help shift companies and investors so that they are setting credible and reliable goals, and then held accountable to fulfilling them.

Danielle Welsh-Rose

So, I'm always interested in asking people like you who've been working in sustainability for quite a long time about barriers and challenges, because it's one of these parts of the job universe, I guess, that we faced a lot of them, but in particular, how you've managed to work through them, around them under them over them, however. Can you tell us about yours?

Claire O’Rourke

I, will look, I've got enormous privilege in my background, and that's because I had a solid upbringing, which was, you know, ironically enough, powered by coal. So, as you mentioned earlier, my father worked in the industry his entire career. And, you know, like, so many of us all around the world who have relied on these industries to, you know, not only, you know, create a privilege that we can enjoy in terms of our standard of living, but also that privilege has allowed me to place my skills and energies where I think it can make the biggest difference on the social issues that matter to me. I think there is a bit of a view out there, particularly, you know, because of the way our society and economy is structured, is that folks who make the choice to go and work in advocacy and not for profits, you know, don't have the skills and qualifications that you might gain through working in the corporate sector, or in other institutions. But my experience over the last 20 years shows me that there is vast intelligence across all sectors, from people from all walks of life, and particularly among First Nations peoples, you know, indigenous peoples from around the world. If we had listened more to those people, for longer, we probably wouldn't be in the state that we're in now, because, you know, the old ways of being able to interact and respect and listen to the lessons of generations that have walked this earth for 1000s of years before us. They are important lessons that we need to return to. So sorry, it's feels like you I think sometimes there can be a view out there that folks working in, you know, the financial sector or in particular parts of business have a set of skills that advocates don't. But my experience is the opposite. I think advocates have to be creative, tenacious, strategic, and they're often solving problems that are just so big, they feel like they can't be won until they are. So, and often the work of advocates is to essentially pull every lever that can be pulled, to get people to do things that they don't want to do, and, you know, that's, that's the work, and that's often harder than getting people to, you know, become aware of a thing and then purchase it, which is often, you know, the way most businesses essentially kind of work. So, yeah, I think I think that's probably a bit of a barrier is a bit of a perception barrier. So, I think we've got enormous potential to leverage the skills and intelligence across all sectors and channel that energy towards this problem. And I think different ways of thinking about problems and solving them is what we need.

Danielle Welsh-Rose

I think you've possibly answered already the next question I wanted to ask you, which is really about a lot of our listeners to this podcast will be involved in the finance industry. What learnings Do you think we in the finance sector, can take from your work?

Claire O’Rourke

Well, broadly, I think the point I'd make is that industries aren't machines. They are full of people. And they're people who have complicated lives and enormous dreams and hopes for the world. And people in these industries, often feel very powerless in the face of climate change, but action and actually feeling better about it starts by claiming your individual agency. You know, it's also about recognising the agency you have in creating the mess we're in, but also in creating the solutions. So that's one aspect to it. The social science that I researched for the book shows me that the power we actually hold is, is not only in ourselves, but it's also in our connections in our networks, but most particularly in the edges of networks in the places where they meet. So, I would ask you to invite your listeners to consider how are your networks now? And where are you seeing the similar people pop up in multiple networks, because it's probably those individuals within those networks who you could actually connect with on this issue, because they're going to have more influence. Social change will spread more quickly, when people in one network are also members of another network. So, you'll see change leapfrogging and the third thing is around urgency. And these can be challenging things to consider. Emissions are still going up. As Al Gore reminds us, 75% of the world's greenhouse emissions come from countries that have made pledges to be carbon neutral by 2050. And we are running out of time. And so, folks in the financial sector have enormous influence. And a mindset shift is really required. The International Energy Agency has clearly stated that any new coal projects are not aligned with keeping the planet within 1.5 degrees. And in some cases, engagement with companies that are still invested in fossil fuels, it is no longer tenable to run an engagement strategy. So, keeping fossil fuels in the ground is a legitimate strategy and a legitimate climate solution. And real action on climate change means disengaging from companies that are still engaged in expansion. When there's no alternative for those companies to transition.

Danielle Welsh-Rose

I'm going to ask you the crystal ball question now. Which is an interesting one. If you had the crystal ball and you could wish for anything in terms of energy transformation in Australia, what would it be?

Claire O’Rourke

Yeah, well, I think what's funny about this is that humans are really terrible at making predictions about how quickly things can change and how much they can change. So, a couple of really cool examples that I discovered in writing a book was no back in 2014. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change predicted that, at best, solar wind and geothermal power combined would only provide about 4% of the world's energy by 2100. We are likely to beat that before 2030, which is seven decades ahead of that prediction, but also back in 2014 The International Energy Agency predicted global average solar prices would be down at USD five cents a kilowatt hour by 2050. But it only took six years for prices to drop to that level. So, I think we'll see industries decarbonize a lot faster than we think they will. I think in a few years’ time, the fossil fuel industries that are continuing to try and hold back change will be viewed like the tobacco industry, they'll be global pariahs, they are already global pariahs. But I think solutions are now economically viable. The technology is racing, and also, global politics is shifting because of the urgency. It's certainly shifted in Australia. So, it's very promising that our nation is going to transform from a climate laggard to a leader. So, I think ambition is there. Goodwill is there. I think the trick now is to ensure that we can have good accountability and credibility on both nations and institutions, and companies so that they're accountable to their climate goals. I also think it's important for us to ensure that the way that we're transitioning doesn't replicate the extractivist methods and tactics of years gone by, and there are already troubling signs that that can that is happening, particularly in carbon abatement markets. So, ensuring that communities have choice and control and can share the benefits from the transition is one of the key ambitions that I hold, and that we seek to advance through the work that we do on domestic energy transformation in Australia. So, I think it'll be faster. But it also needs to be fairer than the practices that have happened in the past.

Danielle Welsh-Rose

I get a lot of hope from the answers you just gave then around how terrible we are as humans in predicting the future and how statistics you just said about the energy transformation happening a lot quicker than had been forecasted or predicted. I think that's a really positive sign something for all of us to hang on to, and we're feeling a little bit like we want to doom scroll on climate change. A bit of a personal question here, you know, often individuals working in the space of sustainability have had an event or met a person or had a trigger in their life that inspired them to get involved actively in this space. Was there that moment, or that person or that thing for you?

Claire O’Rourke

That's a big question for me, because my grandmother actually was quite politically active, we have very different views on social issues. She passed away some time ago, almost 20 years ago now. But she taught me that being engaged in the way that your society works is actually part of your civic duty, not something for other people to do. And so that was a big lesson, she was a big teacher for me. But on climate, I was sent a survey by an advocacy organisation in Australia called Get Up and Get Up does a regular member survey that says, tell me what we should campaign on it with a vast array of issues on it. This was close to 10 years ago, I think. And I looked at all of the options on that list from refugee rights and economic fairness, climate, environment, press freedom, which I'd worked on previously, myself, disability, I looked at the list, and I thought, this is ridiculous, I care about all of these things. Now I'm a classic kind of get up progressive person that will all the social issues I cared about, but that so they actually made me take a second look. And it crystallised for me that where I'd been heading. And I thought, if we don't have a safe climate, all of these other issues become so much harder, inequality will grow. And, you know, the future of the way we live on this planet for all of us, no matter where you are, is at risk. And so, I've made a conscious choice to direct my work into climate, environment, sustainability. And then in terms of my deep engagement, the work I've done on the book and my growing understanding of how important it is for communities to be well connected. And, you know, working towards this challenge. It was certainly the black summer fires that I mentioned earlier, down here in the Illawarra. Every night for you know, almost three months, we had orange cloaked skies, we couldn't breathe, we were checking the air quality apps and I know many people around the world live with very bad air quality, but this was a shock for us because we're right next to the ocean. But also, every night, when the sun went down, we had 1000s of flying foxes or bats rising up and these bats did not live locally. They were escaping from areas that are on fire, presumably. So, we had this kind of end of days scenario every night for a few months where you know, you've got these orange cloak skies, you know, the bats rising We had to pack up our house at one point because we thought we'd have to evacuate. My children were in tears, it was just, this was such a shock. So, I'd already been working on climate, I'd made that choice to come and work on energy transformation six months earlier at Sunrise. But it was such a colossal shock about how clear and present and urgent this issue is, for me, it's obviously, you know, consolidated my, my dedication to working on it. But I think it was the same for so many Australians as well. And we've done research at sunrise called the climate compass, which surveys audience attitudes and behaviours on climate change. There's about 25%, or more of Australians from all over the country, not in cities or regions, it's both who are really worried about climate change, it is the number one issue for them. And I think it's because of those rising, that rising concern, but also a series of climate fuelled disasters, including the fires and repeated flooding events that has seen concern reach new heights. And it's also really shifted community attitudes to the point where our politics has had to respond. And we now have more policy and more regulation coming down the line, which will hopefully get us back on track, because we've had 10 years of being far too far behind the rest of the world on climate policy.

Danielle Welsh-Rose

Your answer just gave me goosebumps Claire because, you know, those bushfires were a real turning point for so many people and organisations in this country. And we certainly noticed from the investment side and a very sharp uptick, in, you know, the sort of client end of things being interested in how they could direct their money in a way that would not contribute to the problem, but also contribute to the solution. And I think, as huge a tragedy is that events and events around that were and the silver lining is that it really felt like a change in the tide, in this country on climate change awareness.

Claire O’Rourke

Oh, and for sure. And if I can just add on that this is not a unique experience as well. It is something that is being experienced with rampant forest fires in you know, all of the major continents on the planet. And it's gives me pause for thought to consider the flooding in Pakistan in 2022 displaced more people than the entire population of Australia. So, these, these consequences are here now, it's not a future problem for us. So, it's always a bit of a mind bender to think it takes all of us to be up against it before we can respond with the pace and scale of change that's required. But I am more optimistic given what I've seen all around Australia and what you see signs of around the world that it's absolutely possible. And there's plenty of world leaders who remain optimistic, but also resolute in terms of what they're doing.

Danielle Welsh-Rose

As we draw at the end of our podcast, perhaps we can touch on one final question. What's your opinion? Do you think the next big sustainability issue is that the financial industry should be playing a role in? So, in other words, I guess what should we in the finance sector be watching out for?

Claire O’Rourke

I think there's two major areas, I think making judgement calls on bad actors who don't have the possibility to transition their businesses, but are, you know, seeking to influence the financial sector, but also governments to delay transition. So bad actors, like Adani, I mentioned earlier, but more cross cutting an issue is around mandatory disclosure and reporting. And I think this can be viewed as an opportunity to not only achieve a level playing field but engage people in the credibility of the products that are being offered. I think sometimes there's a view around that, that it's just another restrictive obligation, and we're already too far too regulated. But I think regulation is what's going to be required, because otherwise, governments won't be able to meet their obligations on their emissions reduction targets, let alone the financial sector itself. So, you know, consumers want credibility, policymakers need credibility. And so those rigorous standards are really what's required to get us on the right path. And I think there's plenty of opportunity for collaboration between advocates, and the sector around regulation, and it goes beyond, in my view, it goes beyond risk. So, I think I'm looking at looking at those regulatory issues. So, we don't have a myriad of complicated measurement statistics and everyone's trying to tell each other that their standards are better than others. I think regulation is probably the only way to make that work for all.

Danielle Welsh-Rose

Thank you so much for being with us today, Claire. It's been a real delight but also very big inspiration to have you with us.

Claire O’Rourke

Thanks so much for having me on Danielle, it was great to chat.

Danielle Welsh-Rose

You have been listening to abrdn's podcast Sustainability Inspires aiming to help you get inspired and to get involved. So, to all of those who've taken time to tune in, many thanks for listening. You can find all our podcasts on our website. Goodbye for now.

Disclaimer

This podcast is provided for general information only and assumes a certain level of knowledge of financial markets. It is provided for informational purposes only and should not be considered as an offer investment recommendation or solicitation to deal in any of the investments or products mentioned herein and does not constitute investment research. The views in this podcast are those of the contributors at the time of publication and do not necessarily reflect those of abrdn. The companies discussed in this podcast have been selected for illustrative purposes only, or to demonstrate our investment management style and not as an investment recommendation or indication of their future performance. The value of investments and the income from them can go down as well as up and investors make it back less than the amount invested. Past performance is not a guide to future returns, return projections or estimates and provide no guarantee of future results.