International Women's Day with abrdn's CFO, Stephanie Bruce
Podcast
0:01
The sustainable investing podcast by abrdn
0:10
Hello and welcome everyone. I'm Eva Cairns your host for today and you're listening to abrdn sustainable investing podcast discussing all things relating to sustainable and responsible investing. It's International Women's Day and I'm delighted to introduce today's fabulous guests Stephanie Bruce. Stephanie's Chief Financial Officer at abrdn, and has held the position since joining the company's board in 2019. She is a highly experienced financial services practitioner and brings experience of working with boards and management teams of financial institutions in respect of financial and commercial management, reporting, risk and control frameworks and regulatory requirements. Before joining the company, Stephanie was a partner at Pricewaterhouse Coopers, a member of the assurance executive and let the Financial Services assurance practice. During her career she has specialised in the financial services sector, working with organisations across asset management, insurance and banking with national and international operations, Stephanie holds a Bachelor of Laws from the University of Edinburgh. Stephanie It's such a pleasure to have you with us today on International Women's Day. Welcome. Hello, Eva. It's lovely to be here and talking with you. And it's it's great to have inspirational role models like yourself, for women working in finance today who are ambitious leaders and aspire to be on a board one day, can you tell us a bit more about your own career journey and your achievements and why they matter to sustainability.
1:32
So if I have to put my hands up here and confess that my career has not been a journey that has involved, huge amount of exemplary orchestration, I have to just say that as we started this discussion, so I originally was going to, I actually was going to study medicine at the 11th hour I swapped to study law in the absence really of knowing what I wanted to do. And then I found myself not actually wildly interested in litigation, conveyancing, family law, saw the light went a bit went off to do my accountancy exams. And you may laugh at that Eva. But actually, this turned out to be the right route for me, because it allowed me to work on a wide range of financial and commercial activities, and actually opened up a huge and varied experiences for me. Now, after I completed my training at PWC. I was very fortunate because I stayed at PWC for a lot of my career, and I was moving every two or three years to a different area of that multidisciplinary practice gaining more and more experience. And I really stayed because I loved working with so many different clients and different geographies. And then your career starts to progress. I was asked to lead business units, and then actually asked to lead the financial services business itself. But regardless of the leadership around those roles, the focus everyday was clients. And I spent much of my time with board, senior stakeholders. And it was just a fascinating experience. And actually, my move to being the CFO at abrdn uses this experience.
2:53
So how have you seen gender diversity develop in our industry throughout your career? And how much is there still to do, in your view, to create a fair and equal society for women.
3:04
So if I reflect back, when I first started, I was probably in a relatively small handful of those going into my particular Avenue. But even in a short time, once I'd started, there was an increasing input of male/female graduates coming into the into professional services. And I think that's been very well balanced, actually, for a long time. I think the contrast comes as you start to move through the organisations as to actually how do you make sure that that balance is still there, both in terms of representation, because obviously, there's different life events and life cycles, as we all know, that makes makes it more difficult for females to see it in the workplace, in some regard. I think the interesting thing I would say, however, though, is if you look at diversity in a broader spectrum, in terms of the diversity around thought and diversity, how to work, being able to work remotely be able to work flexibly heavens, that's come an awfully long way from when I first started, and actually let's be I think we can all agree that actually COVID made an enormous difference in that regard. Just being allowed a lot of different ranges to be applied for people to how they want to work, and when they want to work that really works for them. And in terms of their different circumstances. That said, however, actually being removed from the workplace, and actually having to work maybe across different geographies has always been something I think has also not necessarily worked really to the advantage of females in the workplace. I know that when I first started, it was if you weren't in the right city, actually, potentially you weren't at the right round the right tables, that could be a particular drawback. And you actually had to think about that. And you had to think about how can my skills be well represented? How do people know what I can do? How do I actually get hold of those opportunities? And again, I think that's moved a long way. But there still also is always something we've got to be very well aware of and alive to I think when we look to how do we help individuals access as much as possible the different range of opportunities that are available to them, and also encourage them to grab those opportunities and to take those opportunity because there's something about stepping in to those opportunities as well. So I think Eva to be honest, is always something we're going to have to work at. Yeah, you can put in as many tools as you want. But we're going to have to continue to work on this very consistently.
5:13
And you talked about skills there. Would you say that there are any particular key skills that are needed to develop as a female leader?
5:20
So is it skills? Or is it mindset? Is it attitude is it approach? It's probably all of those, isn't it? Because to an extent, I think it's very easy to focus in on technical skills, and people can often spend a lot of time thinking I've got to have more technical skills, I need to have 100% of abilities on skills or have to be actually we have to be 110% qualified before I can go on to that next role. I think that is, that's a limiting factor that we can often put on ourselves individually, I think it's more about thinking about actually the connections that we need to make a deep relationship skills across the across business, making those networks thinking about an element of self promotion, it doesn't always come as naturally as we might want to do. So we've got to make the time for it. And I know, I certainly had to do that. So I wouldn't necessarily say skills, I think it's probably more some of the broader aspects. Eva, I think, are actually very important. That's a really good point, I think around the mindset and self promotion. And when you think about your own journey, can you tell us a bit more about the mean challenges that you've experienced? And how did you overcome them? Well, actually, it's probably linked to that last point. I mean, my natural stance is to sort of focus on delivering a really good job merit, you know, on a basis of a meritocracy. And then if I deliver that, that will be good, and it will be recognised. But we all know that life doesn't actually work like that. And I didn't actually ever prioritise spending much time on my own self promotion. It's not something I do naturally. But I had to actually think about it at different points in junctures. And I had to actively do that, because I don't naturally go there. I think the other point that I would say, in terms of challenge about progression is, is actually my approach to it. And that point, I said about 110%. So when I was offered roles need to take on this particular role or take on this new leadership role, I think sometimes actually, I would think, well, am I ready? Should I go and do another six months or another year before I actually go and do that. And of course, I think what I was doing was calibrated to say, Well, I'm actually fully 110% qualified now to do it, or should I just step into it. And of course, what I've learned by stepping into roles is that there will always be things that you do not know about going into a new role, you will, of course, work hard, and you'll use those specialist skills that have got you to that place already. But if you wait until you know everything, 110% 120%, then all these opportunities are going to go by you. And I think the key I found is to really believe in the skills and the capabilities I have as a kind of specialist and I'm already good at doing that I have deployed Well, or else I wouldn't be being asked to do these roles, these roles wouldn't be coming my way and and then really work hard to find those who are in those teams in those leadership teams that you've either joined or are leading who will support you learn those other skills that you don't yet have or you aren't as experienced on, there will always be colleagues who are interested in helping you because actually, their focus is about how the team can operate at its best. Now, I'm not saying that's always the case, it is much more of a team objective. When you when you look at it like that. Now I can remember some experiences where when I took on a new role, and again, to your point about challenges were my direct reports were in many cases older than me, they were all male. And indeed, indirectly, I used to report to them. So of course, they found that quite difficult. And it does make for some very interesting situations. But I think having the confidence in, in what I do well, and working out quickly, the strengths of others actually very much allowed you to make it into a team, a team exercise a team objective, a team goal. And I found that actually, that worked really quite quickly to settle everybody. And then for us to actually focus on what was important and the jobs that we had to do. And applying that insight to board level conversations will be quite interesting to hear your thoughts on, you know, how do you do that at board level, the influencing and the difficult conversation? Can you give us any insight on that? Yeah, I mean, I mean, even in terms of sort of my role over the years, you can imagine I spent a lot of time particularly when my role was very much at PwC to work with clients. That's what we did all the time and work with a whole different range of boards. And of course, sometimes you're delivering, you know, successful outcomes, often you're delivering quite difficult messages and that can lend itself to to quite difficult conversations, as you say, I think I think if I was to I could draw many, many examples, but but one that I think one that always sort of stands to me and and it's probably most difficult because of the emotion that then gets played out. So it's not that it's difficult from a technical perspective. It's difficult because you're dealing with a range of different emotions and you're delivering very difficult messages. And I think it's how do you do that and how do you balance that
9:11
That's a really good point, I think around the mindset and self promotion. And when you think about your own journey, can you tell us a bit more about the main challenges that you've experienced? And how did you overcome them?
6:28
Well, actually, it's probably linked to that last point. I mean, my natural stance is to sort of focus on delivering a really good job merit, you know, on a basis of a meritocracy. And then if I deliver that, that will be good, and it will be recognised. But we all know that life doesn't actually work like that. And I didn't actually ever prioritise spending much time on my own self promotion. It's not something I do naturally. But I had to actually think about it at different points in junctures. And I had to actively do that, because I don't naturally go there. I think the other point that I would say, in terms of challenge about progression is, is actually my approach to it. And that point, I said about 110%. So when I was offered roles need to take on this particular role or take on this new leadership role, I think sometimes actually, I would think, well, am I ready? Should I go and do another six months or another year before I actually go and do that. And of course, I think what I was doing was calibrated to say, Well, I'm actually fully 110% qualified now to do it, or should I just step into it. And of course, what I've learned by stepping into roles is that there will always be things that you do not know about going into a new role, you will, of course, work hard, and you'll use those specialist skills that have got you to that place already. But if you wait until you know everything, 110% 120%, then all these opportunities are going to go by you. And I think the key I found is to really believe in the skills and the capabilities I have as a kind of specialist and I'm already good at doing that I have deployed Well, or else I wouldn't be being asked to do these roles, these roles wouldn't be coming my way and and then really work hard to find those who are in those teams in those leadership teams that you've either joined or are leading who will support you learn those other skills that you don't yet have or you aren't as experienced on, there will always be colleagues who are interested in helping you because actually, their focus is about how the team can operate at its best. Now, I'm not saying that's always the case, it is much more of a team objective. When you when you look at it like that. Now I can remember some experiences where when I took on a new role, and again, to your point about challenges were my direct reports were in many cases older than me, they were all male. And indeed, indirectly, I used to report to them. So of course, they found that quite difficult. And it does make for some very interesting situations. But I think having the confidence in, in what I do well, and working out quickly, the strengths of others actually very much allowed you to make it into a team, a team exercise a team objective, a team goal. And I found that actually, that worked really quite quickly to settle everybody. And then for us to actually focus on what was important and the jobs that we had to do.
8:59
And applying that insight to board level conversations will be quite interesting to hear your thoughts on, you know, how do you do that at board level, the influencing and the difficult conversation? Can you give us any insight on that?
9:11
Yeah, I mean, I mean, Eva, in terms of sort of my role over the years, you can imagine I spent a lot of time particularly when my role was very much at PWC to work with clients. That's what we did all the time and work with a whole different range of boards. And of course, sometimes you're delivering, you know, successful outcomes, often you're delivering quite difficult messages and that can lend itself to to quite difficult conversations, as you say, I think I think if I was to I could draw many, many examples, but but one that I think one that always sort of stands to me and and it's probably most difficult because of the emotion that then gets played out. So it's not that it's difficult from a technical perspective. It's difficult because you're dealing with a range of different emotions and you're delivering very difficult messages. And I think it's how do you do that and how do you balance that. In some respects, that's the same as delivering any difficult message, isn't it in any, in any forum, it just happens to have the title board attached to it. But I can think one that was particularly hard to do, I was doing an assessment of a board strategy that was going to result in a really significant financial loss that was just terminal for the whole organisation. And the range of emotions in such a situation, of course, results and hostility in lots of invariably that results in kind of calling into question, what you're telling them the quality of what you've done, the whole your whole basic skill set. And this is where you really need to believe in your own specialisms the quality that you brought to that work, how you've evaluated it, because actually, you know, you're right, you know, you're delivering the right message. But you've got to go through that process of allowing those emotions, making sure it's measured, keeping very calm yourself, because that's an important part of actually managing any form of difficult message and carefully working through it. So that the, you know, because it's not about stepping back from your position, you know, it's right. But it's having the tenacity just to work through it. So everybody understands it, they might not like it, but everybody understands it. And there is a sensible, constructive way forward. So it takes time and it is hard, but it's it's actually, it's like all of these things. Once you faced into these difficult conversations, you're ultimately you know, it's the it's the right conclusion you get to
11:25
excellent and and looking into the future. What do you find most exciting about abrdn’s current developments and direction?
11:33
Now theres, now, there's a topic we could talk about for a while. I mean, I think Well, I think in terms of, if I was to pick out just a couple of real highlights the new brand last year for abrdn was such a significant step for the business, it was really creative, it was really courageous. And those are two things for me that are, they always inspire me anything that is creative and courageous in terms of style. And I really loved the way that the brand was A. developed. And then and then rolled out, I think the team have just done such a fantastic job. And it's been a really key symbol of a new strategy that was set out in 2021. And that's brought clarity to what we're doing is brought clarity to how we're working to ensure that we really do make all our clients better investors. So you know, we have great strengths as an organisation. And with the vector model and the strategy that we have now, it's so much clearer how all of those strands are going to work together to really create the power that we know we can create from our investment strands. So it's just you know, it's very exciting time.
12:32
fantastic to hear about the brand, because it was so different last year, and I think many people were shocked at first, but now actually, it's really, as you say, creative and modern, and what people got behind. So it's fantastic to see that
12:45
And Eva, it created a just a huge amount of engagement. And you know, what is a classic example of diversity of thought, because everybody had a view on it, everybody came at it from a different perspective. And that's precisely what it was about. It was about engaging in a conversation. And I think it's, it's been it's been, it's been now really, really great process.
13:05
And you said that these are the things that inspire you, and that was actually going to be my next question, what are the things that inspire and motivate you, and maybe whether you can recommend any books or podcasts for listeners that have inspired you in the past?
13:18
Yeah, so So something I've just referenced there sort of leadership styles that inspire me and, and for me, it's, you know, leaders that are really creative. And by creative, I mean, open to considering new ideas open to considering different thought processes are not only on one route, have their own, but very, you know, really have good antenna, I love that when people sort of bring in and again, it goes back to this point about diversity, the power of getting so many different thought processes into play, but then really great leadership is to put all of that together in a pot and then have the courage to act, the courage to take the decision forward. So those sorts of processes and styles are always very inspiring to me. And I find myself you know, if I think about what sort of things do I like to read connected to that? I love to read about individuals from right across the spectrum. It you know, there isn't a particular type, geography, etc, that I like to read is more about individuals in terms of, I suppose, how they've approached events and circumstances, how they've addressed problems faced into them, absorb them, but then thrived, that I just think there's a fantastic stories to read and of any sort of walk. And I think it's probably also an age thing from my perspective. I, the older I have got, the more I have become interested in history. So I find myself reading a lot of stories from quite quite a long time ago, right across, you know, from sort of 16th century 18th century and I find myself very interested in the stories of individuals who very much navigated circumstances there and maybe with some bias I find myself more often than not reading stories about women because I find I find it fascinating to sort of read well, and so one example I read a terrific book about sort of Bess of Hardwick, who back in the 16th century was a really shrewd operator. And she navigated her way to being a really successful land and business owner of mines and glass factories at a time when it was really difficult for women to even own and retain assets. And in fact, she was she was connected, obviously, to Chatsworth as well. And her legacy is a significant art collection that she bequeath and we can still see it today. So she was obviously a really tenacious lady. So that was certainly one I find very interesting. And in terms of, I suppose, podcasts, it is interesting, when I have pockets of time, a lot of time travelling, or at the start or the end of the day, I actually prefer to read rather than the rather than listen. So I think I like I value the peace. But one, one thing I will share with listeners is I've I've actually I really enjoy blinkest, which for those of you are not familiar with it is the app that provides really short bite sized summary reads on a huge range of books and topics. So depending on my mood, I could always go and find something of interest, whether it be history, whether it be health and well being, whether it just be slightly more fictional, I can find out I can always find something so that that's what I would certainly recommend.
16:19
Fantastic. And that means you can fit the big book into your day in 10 minutes or so. So, as a final question, given its International Women's Day, are there any final words of advice you would give to women in our industry who aspire to be leaders ever?
16:33
Eva, I think it's really quite, in some respects, it's quite simple. But I can make it sound simple. As we all know, it's about actually, actually how you do that. I think it's if I think about the aspects, which I think are really important, I look back and, and certainly when I've really, worked with an individual mentored an individual help get somebody promoted, it's the messages that come through about you must have confidence in your skills, it's, it sounds so obvious, but you must be your biggest advocate. So believe in yourself, have courage. And that really goes back to my point earlier on, you do not need to be able to do somethingto 110% before you act, and really have courage, believe in yourself, take that take that plunge. And the other thing I would absolutely say as a point of advice, and again, you know, I I see some really talented women who are fantastic at this, which is making connections, but I also see some women who are very who are able to do it, but they don't take the time to do it. So I think making connections and networking is really important. And and these are not these are these are networks and connections and in a business sense that will help them progress. That's it's a slightly different flavour. But you can learn so much from the experience of others, how they navigate certain aspects, how they face into certain problems. And that network will stay with you. It really is. It's fascinating. Some of the people I still can reach out through through my business network of people I met when I first started working all these years ago. So it's a very powerful way that I think can can be, can be very much developed if we just give it a little bit of time and focus.
18:12
Fantastic. Well, it's been such a pleasure to have you with us. Definitely thanks a lot for your time and your inspirational contributions.
18:18
Not at all Eva lovely to talk to.
18:20
You have been listening to the abrdn sustainable investing podcast, a podcast relating to all things responsible and sustainable investing and today on International Women's Day with a focus on female leaders in financial services. Thank you all for tuning in to our podcast. You can find all our episodes on various podcast channels such as Spotify and Apple as well as on the abrdn website. Until our next podcast Good bye for now.
18:55
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19:17
This podcast is provided for general information only and assumes a certain level of knowledge of financial markets. It is provided for informational purposes only and should not be considered as an offer investment recommendation or solicitation to deal in any of the investments or products mentioned herein and does not constitute investment research. The views in this podcast are those of the contributors at the time of publication and do not necessarily reflect those of abrdn. The companies discussed in this podcast have been selected for illustrative purposes only or to demonstrate our investment management style and not as an investment recommendation or indication of their future performance. The value of investments and the income from them can go down as well as up
20:00
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The sustainable investing podcast by abrdn
0:10
Hello and welcome everyone. I'm Eva Cairns your host for today and you're listening to abrdn sustainable investing podcast discussing all things relating to sustainable and responsible investing. It's International Women's Day and I'm delighted to introduce today's fabulous guests Stephanie Bruce. Stephanie's Chief Financial Officer at abrdn, and has held the position since joining the company's board in 2019. She is a highly experienced financial services practitioner and brings experience of working with boards and management teams of financial institutions in respect of financial and commercial management, reporting, risk and control frameworks and regulatory requirements. Before joining the company, Stephanie was a partner at Pricewaterhouse Coopers, a member of the assurance executive and let the Financial Services assurance practice. During her career she has specialised in the financial services sector, working with organisations across asset management, insurance and banking with national and international operations, Stephanie holds a Bachelor of Laws from the University of Edinburgh. Stephanie It's such a pleasure to have you with us today on International Women's Day. Welcome. Hello, Eva. It's lovely to be here and talking with you. And it's it's great to have inspirational role models like yourself, for women working in finance today who are ambitious leaders and aspire to be on a board one day, can you tell us a bit more about your own career journey and your achievements and why they matter to sustainability.
1:32
So if I have to put my hands up here and confess that my career has not been a journey that has involved, huge amount of exemplary orchestration, I have to just say that as we started this discussion, so I originally was going to, I actually was going to study medicine at the 11th hour I swapped to study law in the absence really of knowing what I wanted to do. And then I found myself not actually wildly interested in litigation, conveyancing, family law, saw the light went a bit went off to do my accountancy exams. And you may laugh at that Eva. But actually, this turned out to be the right route for me, because it allowed me to work on a wide range of financial and commercial activities, and actually opened up a huge and varied experiences for me. Now, after I completed my training at PWC. I was very fortunate because I stayed at PWC for a lot of my career, and I was moving every two or three years to a different area of that multidisciplinary practice gaining more and more experience. And I really stayed because I loved working with so many different clients and different geographies. And then your career starts to progress. I was asked to lead business units, and then actually asked to lead the financial services business itself. But regardless of the leadership around those roles, the focus everyday was clients. And I spent much of my time with board, senior stakeholders. And it was just a fascinating experience. And actually, my move to being the CFO at abrdn uses this experience.
2:53
So how have you seen gender diversity develop in our industry throughout your career? And how much is there still to do, in your view, to create a fair and equal society for women.
3:04
So if I reflect back, when I first started, I was probably in a relatively small handful of those going into my particular Avenue. But even in a short time, once I'd started, there was an increasing input of male/female graduates coming into the into professional services. And I think that's been very well balanced, actually, for a long time. I think the contrast comes as you start to move through the organisations as to actually how do you make sure that that balance is still there, both in terms of representation, because obviously, there's different life events and life cycles, as we all know, that makes makes it more difficult for females to see it in the workplace, in some regard. I think the interesting thing I would say, however, though, is if you look at diversity in a broader spectrum, in terms of the diversity around thought and diversity, how to work, being able to work remotely be able to work flexibly heavens, that's come an awfully long way from when I first started, and actually let's be I think we can all agree that actually COVID made an enormous difference in that regard. Just being allowed a lot of different ranges to be applied for people to how they want to work, and when they want to work that really works for them. And in terms of their different circumstances. That said, however, actually being removed from the workplace, and actually having to work maybe across different geographies has always been something I think has also not necessarily worked really to the advantage of females in the workplace. I know that when I first started, it was if you weren't in the right city, actually, potentially you weren't at the right round the right tables, that could be a particular drawback. And you actually had to think about that. And you had to think about how can my skills be well represented? How do people know what I can do? How do I actually get hold of those opportunities? And again, I think that's moved a long way. But there still also is always something we've got to be very well aware of and alive to I think when we look to how do we help individuals access as much as possible the different range of opportunities that are available to them, and also encourage them to grab those opportunities and to take those opportunity because there's something about stepping in to those opportunities as well. So I think Eva to be honest, is always something we're going to have to work at. Yeah, you can put in as many tools as you want. But we're going to have to continue to work on this very consistently.
5:13
And you talked about skills there. Would you say that there are any particular key skills that are needed to develop as a female leader?
5:20
So is it skills? Or is it mindset? Is it attitude is it approach? It's probably all of those, isn't it? Because to an extent, I think it's very easy to focus in on technical skills, and people can often spend a lot of time thinking I've got to have more technical skills, I need to have 100% of abilities on skills or have to be actually we have to be 110% qualified before I can go on to that next role. I think that is, that's a limiting factor that we can often put on ourselves individually, I think it's more about thinking about actually the connections that we need to make a deep relationship skills across the across business, making those networks thinking about an element of self promotion, it doesn't always come as naturally as we might want to do. So we've got to make the time for it. And I know, I certainly had to do that. So I wouldn't necessarily say skills, I think it's probably more some of the broader aspects. Eva, I think, are actually very important. That's a really good point, I think around the mindset and self promotion. And when you think about your own journey, can you tell us a bit more about the mean challenges that you've experienced? And how did you overcome them? Well, actually, it's probably linked to that last point. I mean, my natural stance is to sort of focus on delivering a really good job merit, you know, on a basis of a meritocracy. And then if I deliver that, that will be good, and it will be recognised. But we all know that life doesn't actually work like that. And I didn't actually ever prioritise spending much time on my own self promotion. It's not something I do naturally. But I had to actually think about it at different points in junctures. And I had to actively do that, because I don't naturally go there. I think the other point that I would say, in terms of challenge about progression is, is actually my approach to it. And that point, I said about 110%. So when I was offered roles need to take on this particular role or take on this new leadership role, I think sometimes actually, I would think, well, am I ready? Should I go and do another six months or another year before I actually go and do that. And of course, I think what I was doing was calibrated to say, Well, I'm actually fully 110% qualified now to do it, or should I just step into it. And of course, what I've learned by stepping into roles is that there will always be things that you do not know about going into a new role, you will, of course, work hard, and you'll use those specialist skills that have got you to that place already. But if you wait until you know everything, 110% 120%, then all these opportunities are going to go by you. And I think the key I found is to really believe in the skills and the capabilities I have as a kind of specialist and I'm already good at doing that I have deployed Well, or else I wouldn't be being asked to do these roles, these roles wouldn't be coming my way and and then really work hard to find those who are in those teams in those leadership teams that you've either joined or are leading who will support you learn those other skills that you don't yet have or you aren't as experienced on, there will always be colleagues who are interested in helping you because actually, their focus is about how the team can operate at its best. Now, I'm not saying that's always the case, it is much more of a team objective. When you when you look at it like that. Now I can remember some experiences where when I took on a new role, and again, to your point about challenges were my direct reports were in many cases older than me, they were all male. And indeed, indirectly, I used to report to them. So of course, they found that quite difficult. And it does make for some very interesting situations. But I think having the confidence in, in what I do well, and working out quickly, the strengths of others actually very much allowed you to make it into a team, a team exercise a team objective, a team goal. And I found that actually, that worked really quite quickly to settle everybody. And then for us to actually focus on what was important and the jobs that we had to do. And applying that insight to board level conversations will be quite interesting to hear your thoughts on, you know, how do you do that at board level, the influencing and the difficult conversation? Can you give us any insight on that? Yeah, I mean, I mean, even in terms of sort of my role over the years, you can imagine I spent a lot of time particularly when my role was very much at PwC to work with clients. That's what we did all the time and work with a whole different range of boards. And of course, sometimes you're delivering, you know, successful outcomes, often you're delivering quite difficult messages and that can lend itself to to quite difficult conversations, as you say, I think I think if I was to I could draw many, many examples, but but one that I think one that always sort of stands to me and and it's probably most difficult because of the emotion that then gets played out. So it's not that it's difficult from a technical perspective. It's difficult because you're dealing with a range of different emotions and you're delivering very difficult messages. And I think it's how do you do that and how do you balance that
9:11
That's a really good point, I think around the mindset and self promotion. And when you think about your own journey, can you tell us a bit more about the main challenges that you've experienced? And how did you overcome them?
6:28
Well, actually, it's probably linked to that last point. I mean, my natural stance is to sort of focus on delivering a really good job merit, you know, on a basis of a meritocracy. And then if I deliver that, that will be good, and it will be recognised. But we all know that life doesn't actually work like that. And I didn't actually ever prioritise spending much time on my own self promotion. It's not something I do naturally. But I had to actually think about it at different points in junctures. And I had to actively do that, because I don't naturally go there. I think the other point that I would say, in terms of challenge about progression is, is actually my approach to it. And that point, I said about 110%. So when I was offered roles need to take on this particular role or take on this new leadership role, I think sometimes actually, I would think, well, am I ready? Should I go and do another six months or another year before I actually go and do that. And of course, I think what I was doing was calibrated to say, Well, I'm actually fully 110% qualified now to do it, or should I just step into it. And of course, what I've learned by stepping into roles is that there will always be things that you do not know about going into a new role, you will, of course, work hard, and you'll use those specialist skills that have got you to that place already. But if you wait until you know everything, 110% 120%, then all these opportunities are going to go by you. And I think the key I found is to really believe in the skills and the capabilities I have as a kind of specialist and I'm already good at doing that I have deployed Well, or else I wouldn't be being asked to do these roles, these roles wouldn't be coming my way and and then really work hard to find those who are in those teams in those leadership teams that you've either joined or are leading who will support you learn those other skills that you don't yet have or you aren't as experienced on, there will always be colleagues who are interested in helping you because actually, their focus is about how the team can operate at its best. Now, I'm not saying that's always the case, it is much more of a team objective. When you when you look at it like that. Now I can remember some experiences where when I took on a new role, and again, to your point about challenges were my direct reports were in many cases older than me, they were all male. And indeed, indirectly, I used to report to them. So of course, they found that quite difficult. And it does make for some very interesting situations. But I think having the confidence in, in what I do well, and working out quickly, the strengths of others actually very much allowed you to make it into a team, a team exercise a team objective, a team goal. And I found that actually, that worked really quite quickly to settle everybody. And then for us to actually focus on what was important and the jobs that we had to do.
8:59
And applying that insight to board level conversations will be quite interesting to hear your thoughts on, you know, how do you do that at board level, the influencing and the difficult conversation? Can you give us any insight on that?
9:11
Yeah, I mean, I mean, Eva, in terms of sort of my role over the years, you can imagine I spent a lot of time particularly when my role was very much at PWC to work with clients. That's what we did all the time and work with a whole different range of boards. And of course, sometimes you're delivering, you know, successful outcomes, often you're delivering quite difficult messages and that can lend itself to to quite difficult conversations, as you say, I think I think if I was to I could draw many, many examples, but but one that I think one that always sort of stands to me and and it's probably most difficult because of the emotion that then gets played out. So it's not that it's difficult from a technical perspective. It's difficult because you're dealing with a range of different emotions and you're delivering very difficult messages. And I think it's how do you do that and how do you balance that. In some respects, that's the same as delivering any difficult message, isn't it in any, in any forum, it just happens to have the title board attached to it. But I can think one that was particularly hard to do, I was doing an assessment of a board strategy that was going to result in a really significant financial loss that was just terminal for the whole organisation. And the range of emotions in such a situation, of course, results and hostility in lots of invariably that results in kind of calling into question, what you're telling them the quality of what you've done, the whole your whole basic skill set. And this is where you really need to believe in your own specialisms the quality that you brought to that work, how you've evaluated it, because actually, you know, you're right, you know, you're delivering the right message. But you've got to go through that process of allowing those emotions, making sure it's measured, keeping very calm yourself, because that's an important part of actually managing any form of difficult message and carefully working through it. So that the, you know, because it's not about stepping back from your position, you know, it's right. But it's having the tenacity just to work through it. So everybody understands it, they might not like it, but everybody understands it. And there is a sensible, constructive way forward. So it takes time and it is hard, but it's it's actually, it's like all of these things. Once you faced into these difficult conversations, you're ultimately you know, it's the it's the right conclusion you get to
11:25
excellent and and looking into the future. What do you find most exciting about abrdn’s current developments and direction?
11:33
Now theres, now, there's a topic we could talk about for a while. I mean, I think Well, I think in terms of, if I was to pick out just a couple of real highlights the new brand last year for abrdn was such a significant step for the business, it was really creative, it was really courageous. And those are two things for me that are, they always inspire me anything that is creative and courageous in terms of style. And I really loved the way that the brand was A. developed. And then and then rolled out, I think the team have just done such a fantastic job. And it's been a really key symbol of a new strategy that was set out in 2021. And that's brought clarity to what we're doing is brought clarity to how we're working to ensure that we really do make all our clients better investors. So you know, we have great strengths as an organisation. And with the vector model and the strategy that we have now, it's so much clearer how all of those strands are going to work together to really create the power that we know we can create from our investment strands. So it's just you know, it's very exciting time.
12:32
fantastic to hear about the brand, because it was so different last year, and I think many people were shocked at first, but now actually, it's really, as you say, creative and modern, and what people got behind. So it's fantastic to see that
12:45
And Eva, it created a just a huge amount of engagement. And you know, what is a classic example of diversity of thought, because everybody had a view on it, everybody came at it from a different perspective. And that's precisely what it was about. It was about engaging in a conversation. And I think it's, it's been it's been, it's been now really, really great process.
13:05
And you said that these are the things that inspire you, and that was actually going to be my next question, what are the things that inspire and motivate you, and maybe whether you can recommend any books or podcasts for listeners that have inspired you in the past?
13:18
Yeah, so So something I've just referenced there sort of leadership styles that inspire me and, and for me, it's, you know, leaders that are really creative. And by creative, I mean, open to considering new ideas open to considering different thought processes are not only on one route, have their own, but very, you know, really have good antenna, I love that when people sort of bring in and again, it goes back to this point about diversity, the power of getting so many different thought processes into play, but then really great leadership is to put all of that together in a pot and then have the courage to act, the courage to take the decision forward. So those sorts of processes and styles are always very inspiring to me. And I find myself you know, if I think about what sort of things do I like to read connected to that? I love to read about individuals from right across the spectrum. It you know, there isn't a particular type, geography, etc, that I like to read is more about individuals in terms of, I suppose, how they've approached events and circumstances, how they've addressed problems faced into them, absorb them, but then thrived, that I just think there's a fantastic stories to read and of any sort of walk. And I think it's probably also an age thing from my perspective. I, the older I have got, the more I have become interested in history. So I find myself reading a lot of stories from quite quite a long time ago, right across, you know, from sort of 16th century 18th century and I find myself very interested in the stories of individuals who very much navigated circumstances there and maybe with some bias I find myself more often than not reading stories about women because I find I find it fascinating to sort of read well, and so one example I read a terrific book about sort of Bess of Hardwick, who back in the 16th century was a really shrewd operator. And she navigated her way to being a really successful land and business owner of mines and glass factories at a time when it was really difficult for women to even own and retain assets. And in fact, she was she was connected, obviously, to Chatsworth as well. And her legacy is a significant art collection that she bequeath and we can still see it today. So she was obviously a really tenacious lady. So that was certainly one I find very interesting. And in terms of, I suppose, podcasts, it is interesting, when I have pockets of time, a lot of time travelling, or at the start or the end of the day, I actually prefer to read rather than the rather than listen. So I think I like I value the peace. But one, one thing I will share with listeners is I've I've actually I really enjoy blinkest, which for those of you are not familiar with it is the app that provides really short bite sized summary reads on a huge range of books and topics. So depending on my mood, I could always go and find something of interest, whether it be history, whether it be health and well being, whether it just be slightly more fictional, I can find out I can always find something so that that's what I would certainly recommend.
16:19
Fantastic. And that means you can fit the big book into your day in 10 minutes or so. So, as a final question, given its International Women's Day, are there any final words of advice you would give to women in our industry who aspire to be leaders ever?
16:33
Eva, I think it's really quite, in some respects, it's quite simple. But I can make it sound simple. As we all know, it's about actually, actually how you do that. I think it's if I think about the aspects, which I think are really important, I look back and, and certainly when I've really, worked with an individual mentored an individual help get somebody promoted, it's the messages that come through about you must have confidence in your skills, it's, it sounds so obvious, but you must be your biggest advocate. So believe in yourself, have courage. And that really goes back to my point earlier on, you do not need to be able to do somethingto 110% before you act, and really have courage, believe in yourself, take that take that plunge. And the other thing I would absolutely say as a point of advice, and again, you know, I I see some really talented women who are fantastic at this, which is making connections, but I also see some women who are very who are able to do it, but they don't take the time to do it. So I think making connections and networking is really important. And and these are not these are these are networks and connections and in a business sense that will help them progress. That's it's a slightly different flavour. But you can learn so much from the experience of others, how they navigate certain aspects, how they face into certain problems. And that network will stay with you. It really is. It's fascinating. Some of the people I still can reach out through through my business network of people I met when I first started working all these years ago. So it's a very powerful way that I think can can be, can be very much developed if we just give it a little bit of time and focus.
18:12
Fantastic. Well, it's been such a pleasure to have you with us. Definitely thanks a lot for your time and your inspirational contributions.
18:18
Not at all Eva lovely to talk to.
18:20
You have been listening to the abrdn sustainable investing podcast, a podcast relating to all things responsible and sustainable investing and today on International Women's Day with a focus on female leaders in financial services. Thank you all for tuning in to our podcast. You can find all our episodes on various podcast channels such as Spotify and Apple as well as on the abrdn website. Until our next podcast Good bye for now.
18:55
Thank you for listening to the sustainable investing podcast brought to you by abrdn. Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and for more great content visit abrdn.com.
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This podcast is provided for general information only and assumes a certain level of knowledge of financial markets. It is provided for informational purposes only and should not be considered as an offer investment recommendation or solicitation to deal in any of the investments or products mentioned herein and does not constitute investment research. The views in this podcast are those of the contributors at the time of publication and do not necessarily reflect those of abrdn. The companies discussed in this podcast have been selected for illustrative purposes only or to demonstrate our investment management style and not as an investment recommendation or indication of their future performance. The value of investments and the income from them can go down as well as up
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