Fraser Kerr: Hello and welcome back to Wealth Wise the financial planning podcast from abrdn. As you know, I'm your host Fraser Kerr, Regional Director at abrdn. And in this series, we aim to bring you the conversations and collective insights that help you achieve more every day. A really exciting episode for you all today, one that I myself am really looking forward to, and keeping in the spirit of Christmas, we're looking at the Gift of Gifting whilst getting some insight into the realities of this from the perspective of our leadership team here at abrdn financial planning. We're really looking forward to engaging with them on their motivations, their purpose, their why, and looking at taking a peek under the bonnet of their own financial situation and some advice that they've potentially given themselves. I think we can all agree that a key focus and motivation for many is providing for loved ones, being able to support them both emotionally and financially, and this is something that we see consistently with our clients. But in order to bring this narrative to life, I'm delighted to be joined in our Edinburgh office at 1 George Street today by David Murray, the Managing Director of the North at abrdn.

David Murray: Hi Fraser, delighted to be here, loving your work so far.

Fraser: Thanks, David. And Martin Young, Managing Director for the south region at abrdn.

Martin Young: Hi, Fraser, thanks for having me here today.

Fraser: I think in terms of the experience that we've got in the room, we've got decades, people who have been across the industry during very different times. At that leadership level, you both have that responsibility tenfold in terms of the planners that you're responsible for, by proxy, the clients that they have got, as well. I mean, how do you manage that as well, Martin, in terms of where you are is from your own background?

Martin: I suppose, I've always liked working with people. It's as simple as that. And I've been in a role that's very fortunate, from my perspective that I can deal with clients, and I can deal with people internally as well. I like that interaction. I'm actually a really nosy person at heart. So, when I joined financial services, first off, I thought I'd found the ideal thing that you could walk into a room to somebody and ask them loads and loads of questions that you could not ask somebody in the street, and you go dig around all the personal background, find out about stuff. And that that, to me was absolutely brilliant. You know, I thought I thought I'd landed at that point. And that was good. And that set me up going forward. I suppose I had an insight into this, because my, my father was a financial adviser, as well. He had his own business for 20 odd years. So, I was aware of this as an industry, I knew what it provided it as well. So, it was good.

Fraser: The young pedigree in the financial planning world.

Martin: Potentially.

Fraser: Yeah. And I suppose for yourself, David, as well, you've been part of the organisation for, you know, nearly 15 years as well. And the responsibility and that something that you find comes naturally to you, and you kind of run towards that challenge, or?

David: Yeah, for me, I love my job. Absolutely do. I think it's a perfect job for me. I think there's a few things that you know, you get to a stage in life, you know, what you like, and you know what you don't like, and I probably knew when I was looking for a career that I wanted to work with people, and primarily, I wanted to help people. So essentially, and I probably never told you this Fraser, I'd narrowed it down to two options. One was actually a nurse and the other one was to work in financial services. And I don't really like the sight of blood and I'm quite good with numbers, so financial services was the place for me, and it was a good fit for me. I didn't know that Martin's dad was a financial adviser. But that makes perfect sense. Long ago, when I was growing up in the 1970s, there was a lot of home service, what we would call - so people from the Pru and Royal Life and people that that would come around your houses on a Friday night, collect some of your life policies and your endowments and things like that. And I always remember this guy and I remember his name; his name is Jim Bannon. And so that was, what 50 odd years ago. And he was such an influence on our family, he was a go to guy not just for, you know, saving, but he knew a bit about everything, and he was a trusted advisor in a lot of ways. And I saw the way that the people in the community looked up to this guy, and I thought, I want to be like him. And that was probably, you know, that was probably five or six, when I first interacted with this guy. And I knew that feeling and respect he had, and I thought, yeah, I want some of that.  And that that probably lived with me, sort of throughout my education and where I wanted to go.

Martin: It's interesting actually that you say that, because one of the things that I think I deliver, my planners deliver to their clients, is not just financial services, it's it goes far, far further than that. So, you know, they talk about their black book of contacts, which isn't a service we provide. But it's nice if a client phones you up and says, I'm thinking of doing this, do you know somebody? Or, I'm thinking of buying that, can you help me? And those sort of moments of, you know, makes the job enjoyable, like you say, Jim Bannon probably did stuff like that, he probably knew somebody that knew somebody, and it might have been at a different level in those days, because he was in the community. But the job's not essentially changed for many, many years, really.

David: And I suppose it was that that element of trust that he had. You know that he was a sensible individual, and you knew that he had your best interests at heart and would look after you. And that, that feeling of community and looking after each other means a lot to me, you know, you know that I do a lot of things outside work in terms of running and coaching and things and it all links together. And that, you know that that's really what I want my life to be about.

Fraser: Yeah, you're obviously both at the latter stages of your career, your families are…

David: He wants us out the door now as well.

Fraser: I'm eyeing up that seat Martin's in. But you know, it is a kind of incredible responsibility for your family position as well and you know, what you do for them. I know you both personally, you know, kids are going to university, kids are getting married, there's grandkids on the way you know, there's a whole host of moving parts. And so, is there anything that you're really doing, you know, when you're thinking about gifting, supporting those loved ones? Is there anything that you do specifically when you're doing that? Is it reactive in terms of as and when something pops up? Or do you try and be meticulous and keep spreadsheets if you're given one child something you give the other child something?

David: So, I think what probably helps us is the fact that we are we are people, you know, we are family men as well. So, the journey that our clients are going on is the same journey as we're going on. And the hopes and fears and aspirations that we've got will be very similar to the clients that we look after so it's relatable. I've got three daughters, as you know, and two of them have get engaged over the last six months. My oldest daughter is expecting our first grandchild in April. And so, it’s been a phenomenal six months for us all really, really good and really positive. But that, that brings a bit more fear as well. And just, you know, first of all, her health, you know, is she going to be okay through the pregnancy is the baby going to be alright all that type of thing, and then you start to think about right, what she going to do job wise. You know, my, my wife really gave up her career to look after our three daughters and sacrificed a lot to look after me and, and the three girls. And does Courtney want to do that? I'm not quite sure yet, and I don't think she is either. So that's the first stage of that and getting our head around it and seeing where she is. And the other thing that certainly Linda I have tried to do is to give our daughters a start in life, potentially a start that we didn't have. We both came from working class backgrounds and didn't have a huge amount of money growing up, we've been quite lucky that we've got a wee bit more behind us and been able to save. But we also want to try and have that balance of our daughters appreciating the value of money and working for things and having to budget. You know, you don't want to spoil people but equally, you want to look after them. So is a very, very fine line. And Linda and I talk about that a lot. I'm much softer than my wife.

Fraser: Yeah.

David: And, yeah, it's not easy, Fraser, is probably what I would say to you, and even just we're coming up to Christmas. So, Linda's get a list for the three girls, and she will make absolutely sure that she spends the exact same amount on all three of them, there is no denying that. And that's that sort of fairness and all that type of thing. So, in terms of us, our journey is evolving as the kids move, you know, I've got two of my daughters are in their own homes, you know, my oldest daughter's just about to have a baby. And it's that balance of trying to do what we can to support them, but equally allow them to stand on their own two feet and be able to, you know, to be self-sufficient, and you know, and educated in what they need to do, and those disciplines.

Fraser: It just shows as well how much a financial plan can evolve and change. You know, I mean, I'm sure both the engagements, you know, something you probably didn't budget for and plan for happening at this time, exactly. And a grandkid, you know, it's hard to know, you kind of have to be reactive to this as well, it’s, you can’t forecast everything out and know that in three years X is happening in four years Y is happening.

David: And even my two daughters that got engaged are in very different situations and outlooks. One of them potentially wants to get married pretty quickly. And the other one is very relaxed about it. One of them wanted a huge engagement party and a big show and the other one didn't want any fuss at all. So, you never get two the same. And Martin and I talk quite a lot without that, we were even speaking about it earlier on just about, you know how kids are different. And you know, and you need to take that into account as well and appreciate that.

Fraser: Yeah. And what about yourself, Martin? Are you just keeping all your money for yourself, so you can, eh?

Martin: Of course, you know. Just sitting counting it in the castle.

Fraser: Stereotypical Cockney.

Martin: We treat the kids the same.

Fraser: Yeah.

Martin: And I suppose that's, and I see that with my clients, they do exactly the same thing, they don't want to treat children differently. I've got five children to think about. So that can make it, that can make it expensive at times. And I suppose I'm fortunate, I've got four daughters and one son. So, the two eldest daughters, one of them's got their own house, is married, married to a wife, who's been married for five years now. And they are expecting their first child as well. And the second eldest is renting a place as well. So, she's independent. And then I've got my son doing an apprenticeship. My middle daughter, our middle daughter doing a degree in history in Newcastle at the moment and then the next one still finishing off A levels and planning to go to university as well. I think in terms of treating them all the same, the one thing we've done, my wife's, I'd say she squirrels money away into pots, much better than me. I'm a bit frivolous with money. I just see it coming and I like to spend it.

Fraser: Flash is the word, Martin. Flash, a bit flash.

Martin: Yeah possibly, no, I enjoy spending money and ah one thing that my wife's instilled in me, and it's maybe down to different backgrounds, where I had quite a nice upbringing, I'd say and we, I don't think, I wasn't conscious that we saved for anything, particularly. My wife's brought into me a discipline for saving for things. But I think for me, the message has always been to have a plan and save every single month, because I've not really felt the university cost at all, just because we just popped a bit away every single month and just always happened.

Fraser: And what was it you used for that Martin? Was it sort of like a junior ISA type vehicle? Or, you know, was it trying to just get as tax efficient as possible and invest in over the longer term, then really?

Martin: I used a unit trust in my wife's name, because she at that point wasn't working. So, we used, we took advantage of her tax allowances. And we've shuffled it into ISAs lately because my wife works now. So well, she worked most of the time. And I think as you know, she's a, she's a paramedic, which is not the easiest of jobs to do.

Fraser:  And putting up with you also not the easiest.

Martin: Exactly, exactly.

Fraser: She's an inspiration.

Martin: Paramedic by daytime and a nurse by nighttime.

Fraser:  Absolutely. And I think it just goes to show the power of compound interest, planning for the long term. You know, you've both been very forthcoming, very open about your personal situations, and you talk quite readily about going through these different stages in your life and having different priorities as you go through these different stages as well. So, you know, at some stage, it becomes about just protection, keeping your head above water and trying to save what you can, but ultimately, you know, it's quite expensive, when you're younger, and maybe your earnings aren't quite as high, and then that evolves and changes. You've both always just tried to demonstrate a good foundation, good habits, and just trying to have that savings. Before I know, David, you know, your history was working in the bank with financial services, and that sort of almost like a financial education was kind of thrust on you from an early age as well, because you started so young in the bank, and you really bought into what they were trying to achieve as well.

David: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it was, at the time, having good mentors, you know, bank managers that would instill a good discipline and, you know, that savings discipline and culture from from day one. And as a member of bank staff, you couldn't borrow money and things like that, you know, when I first started, and it made you. And again, my Mum and Dad were probably same as Linda's Mum and Dad were that, you know, you didn't get into debt and, you know, you save for things and, you know, never had credit cards and things like that, so that there was a bit of that culture as, as we started to progress. And I think you're right, in terms of sort of life stages. So obviously, early doors for us as we had a young family, it was very much focused on protection needs for Linda and I and you know, the what if scenarios, you know, in terms of at that stage, I was the main breadwinner so what would happened to me, but equally, what would happen to Linda, you know, what would what would happen to the kids and myself if something happened to Linda particularly as she wasn't working. I was lucky enough to work for a big organisation, a bank and they provided really good benefits, but Linda was a housewife and equally, you know, if anything happened to her, we had to look at it from a financial point, point of view. And unfortunately, Linda, Linda had an accident 12 years ago, and she actually fell down the stairs at home and suffered a brain haemorrhage. So, we were lucky enough that she made a good recovery. But it took a good six months. And she had some critical illness cover in place and that paid out. And that that gives a bit of breathing space. Because that exact week, I was actually made redundant from my job in the bank.  So, it was a double whammy, I literally nearly lost my wife. And we'd lost our source of earnings with three young kids so, so I experienced firsthand the value of protection and having a prudent financial plan. Now, I got a good job when I'm now and I love it, and it was it was life changing for us there. But it really brought home the value of having a proper financial plan and taking the right steps at the right time. Probably one of the other epiphany moments that I had was actually when one of my clients passed away, and I'd put some protection in place for them, again, when I worked in the bank. They didn't see the value in it, they wanted to invest a small amount of money. But there was something in them that I saw, and they actually reminded me of my Mum and Dad, and they didn't have cover in place for the mortgage, they'd a young family and all that stuff. And, and I was really honest with him and said, look, I don't feel comfortable investing £5000 for you to try and make some more money, when I know if something happens to one of you, you're gonna be a really, really bad position. And unfortunately, that came true for them. And I just remember Mrs. Smith coming in and explaining what had happened to her husband and reminded me about the conversation that I'd had with him and how I had looked after her and her two daughters, and she would never forget me. And that, that really brought home the impact that we can have, you know. We talk about interest rates and market crashes, and you know, trying to outpace inflation or whatever but you know, there is much more to financial planning than just trying to chase a bit of a return you know. And I'm sure Martin's got lots of examples as well, of where we've positively impacted people's lives for the better.

Fraser: It's even motivating listening to you just now talking about that. And you can, you know, the passion is coming across, it’s evident and it's experiencing that firsthand as well and the peace of mind at an incredibly stressful time. You know, for you personally as well. Having that financial plan in place, it just really drives home the value in that. I suppose for yourself, Martin, do you try and instill sort of these financial habits now that Donna has passed them on to you do you try and instill them in the children as well, in terms of that financial education piece too?

Martin: I suppose we're beginning to see that with our daughter in university, she's having to budget. We've given her an allowance and said you've got to live within that. And it was encouraging, she came back this weekend, like a little whirlwind, just for a few days and checking in with her how she's doing with money. You know, she's learnt she's learned to budget; she knows what it's all about, seems to be doing okay. She's discovered that a triple vodka and coke in Newcastle student bar is only three pounds. That's an absolute bargain, you've a night for a tenner. But you know, so you can see that with budgeting and my son, you know, he's earning, he's not earning a lot of money at the moment as an apprentice because the wages are shocking, to be honest. But he's, he's putting money away every month. And he's saving and he knows, you know, he pays his car insurance and he's taken out his phone and his gym membership and all those things and it's nice to see him, he's quite pleased to be saving at the moment as well. And then our youngest is, she turned 16 about three four months ago, she got a job in a shop, in a large shop only two days after 16th birthday, having done a group interview, which I thought was a lot for 16-year-old to go through. And she's saving away like you would not believe. It's good to see her saving up like that and to, I think it's it comes back to having a target, an objective. If you really want it, you'll save it won't you it's as simple as that.

Fraser: I think what's evident for me as well and, you're both incredibly open. You always have been with me personally and professionally as well. But it seems like that extends into the family household, where you actively do talk about money, and you do talk about savings and habits and try and instill that. It's probably fair to say that, traditionally, that's not maybe as commonplace, and it's probably maybe not as common in families across the UK? And that is a valuable conversation to be having, to educate about the benefits of saving, the why behind doing it and, and the justification for that. But that seems something that you both have really tried to instill within the family as well.

David: Yeah, I would, I would definitely say financial education is important. And, you know, I think it should be taught at school, and discipline such a - one of the first jobs I did in the bank was actually going around high schools and talk to them about savings and interest rates and all that type of thing. You know, I liked maths and all that type of thing. And, you know, I liked saving up and buying things, you know and having that goal of, you know, an objective and working for it, and I thought it was much more enjoyable. If you could work for something and then really, you know, decide what's important to spend your funds on. So, I definitely think that's important. I think the other thing is just having that dialogue with your, your sons or daughters, I think, you know, whether it's around finance or any other aspects of life. You know, I remember my dad was very, very open and tried to, you know, show us the ways of the world in various different things. Probably as a teenager, I didn't appreciate a lot of the things he said, but when I look back now, probably everything he said was true. And he was trying to, you know, set us up for a good life going forward. And I think that's probably what we're trying to do with our kids, as most people will do, is try to try and steer them in the right path and give them a few, you know, guiding hands along the way.

Martin: They like to pretend they're not listening to you though, don't they and then pop up with your, with your advice a bit later. Yes. So yeah, it is good that they do take that on board, I think the accessibility of advice, or information on the Internet helps that generation as well. So, you know, before the kids have opened up savings accounts for their things they're wanting to do. You know, they've done their research before they come and sit down and then say, what do you reckon this is okay? what do you reckon to that? And you know that, but it's funny their demand is to get these things done immediately.

Fraser: Yeah.

Martin: And they want it done. They found out what they want, and then I'm ready to do it and done, and then I want it finished and gone. And that's it. So, it's a different, different approach to what I would have expected, I suppose when I was there their age. Suppose I see my son, you know, the first thing, one of the first things he did was when he went through his benefits, joined the pension scheme.

Fraser: Yeah.

Martin: Now I made a mistake, when I was his age of not joining the pension scheme.

Fraser: There's a consistent theme here, Martin with regards to your own finances.

Martin: But also, in those days, you could join a final salary pension scheme, if you're only in it for a couple of years, when you left, they gave you your money back. And I spent mine on a car. Just so you know, you learn from those things when you look back and think I should have stuck with it. And so, I'm not letting him make those same mistakes now.

Fraser: And what about yourself, David? Is there any sort of one piece of financial advice that, you know, if you could look back and sort of speak to David, 30 years ago, you would say, I wish I'd done something slightly differently, or anything you would impart?

David: So, I would certainly say, and you do learn from your mistakes, absolutely. That the thing that we have encouraged the girls to do was to save from their first wage. Because if you put money aside from day one, you never miss up. And certainly, at that age there's lots of things to spend your money on. And I remember, you know, certainly when I started work, you know, you were like it in a sweet shop at times, you know, we're just a young boy, no commitments, dig money to the folks and the rest was mine and it was gone by the end of the month. But I think if you know, you'll spend what you have, is I suppose what I'm trying to say and just that saving from day one and getting into that habit really, really helps. And before you know it, there's a nice wee nest egg built up there. And that's what our daughters have found. Luckily enough that my two oldest daughters were able to save up the deposits for their houses and they've done that because they saved really from day one of working. And that was a good feeling for them that they had that financial freedom to do and a lot of their friends, unfortunately, just hadn't had that discipline and are still unfortunately staying at home with the parents despite you know wanting a bit more freedom.

Martin: So, did you take some housekeeping off the kids? Because I haven't started doing that. You know, when you’re not sure because I’m thinking he's not earning very much and I'm as long as he's saving, I've taken the view as far as I can seem saving, I think I'm happy with that.

David: No, we didn't. So, so we had a rule, and I don't know how we arrived at it, but we said.

Fraser: Linda told you, David that was it.

David: We won't take any dig money from either, all three of the girls until they're 21. Now, and we're done, there's a balance to that ss we encourage them to save some money. Now, one of my friends actually done something different. He took dig money from day one from them, but he saved up for them. And I don't think his daughters actually know that he's done that and continue to do that. But the other thing, I'm a bit soft with some of that stuff. So, for example, my 27-year-old daughter, who's just about to have a baby, and has lived in our own house for last five years, I'm still paying her mobile phone bill. And I hope my wife doesn't listen to this cos she doesn't know.  And so, there's a wee bit of that. But yeah, we made that conscious effort, decision that we'll wait till they're 21.

Martin: I think dads are generally softer, aren’t they?

David: Yeah. Definitely, when it comes to daughters. Definitely, yeah.

Fraser: Both of your stories and the narrative that you're sharing about your family, there's a lot of similarities but there's also subtle differences as well. You know, overall, the intentions are broadly similar, you know, that responsibility of wanting to provide, wanting to make sure they're well informed, wanting to make sure to instill good habits. But actually, as with anything, in terms of the financial planning world, it's hugely unique and individualistic. And that's something again, we've kind of seen running consistently across Wealth Wise, consistently across who we're speaking to, is that everything is so individualistic, and down to that individual as well. Something that we've talked about quite a lot, as well is the importance of cash flow modelling, and how that can really add value. And I suppose, kind of taking a step back and focusing in on yourselves, is that something that that you've both engaged in, in terms of your finances? I mean, Martin with you, if you're thinking about retiring, or, you know, looking at your options, is that something that you would want to incorporate yourself?

Martin: I've, I've done it for us, because it's the easiest way of explaining where we are. Because it's, I suppose being on the inside, it's very easy to look at it and go, Yeah, we're fine. We don't need any help. But interesting, what we did, we drew out a timeline on the page between us. And below the line, we put everything we've got. And if it's tied up when it comes back, and above the line we put all the stuff we've got to spend, like, you know, annual university fees - we've got, we've got we’ve got a couple of overlap years or university fees for the kids to cope with, which are going to be expensive. We want to buy a car for each of the kids, we want to help them with the homes, not buy a home, but at least get them going. So, it's just stuff like that. And we've got we have got all that that mapped out to make sure that we've got the right money coming back at the right time for the right thing. And then yeah, I have got a plan that says when I stop, I know exactly what I need, where that's coming from, how I'm gonna deliver that from a tax efficiency point of view. So, all those things are in. And that's the same, it's the same thing to do for clients. It's exactly the same. It's, I suppose, in that instance, I'm reassuring me and Donna, that we're okay.

Fraser: Yeah. And do you find that just brings things to life for Donna as well and provides her with a bit of peace of mind and clarity too?

Martin: Yeah, we very much work on it together to go about this what we both want, we're both heading in this, is, you know, does it work basically, does it? Does it work? Or do I need to do another year or another year or whatever? Yeah, to get to where we want to get to. But yeah, it's a good exercise to go through. And I love it with clients. Because when you do it on the computer, instead of on a bit of paper, it's lovely when the client says to you, well, I want to give X to one of my kids at this date, and X at that date, and you can plug it in and see what impact that has on the client. Yeah, you know, can you afford to do what you want to do? Yeah. And that's, that's, you know, that's, that's our job is to look after the client, first and foremost. It's nice if you can help them to do all the things they want to do. And sometimes to be able to put your, you know, put up your hand and say, I don't think you should do that. I know you want to do it, but actually, the long-term impact on you is not good.

Fraser: And that's sometimes where the real value can be added is actually in the challenge and difficult conversation, you know, and actually getting them to take no action, you know, almost against what their wishes are.

Martin: Yeah, yeah, I think it was making them aware of the consequence. I've never stopped a client. You can't stop someone from doing something but it's making think broader. Yeah. And that's, that's, that's good. That's a good part of the job.

Fraser: Yeah. And what about you, David as well? Is it something you've used?

David: Yeah, definitely. So, I've always probably had a plan in my head. And, and always thought, thought about that. And but that plan has changed over the years, you know, what, what I probably thought in my early 40s about when I would retire, what I'd want to do has changed and evolved, as you know, as we evolve as people. And I think, cashflow modelling, and having that plan is extremely powerful, you know, it is absolutely personal to the individual, to their objectives. There's no right or wrong answers. But there's also that science behind it around yeah, can you do what you want to do? And can you do at this time? So, for me, personally, I'm 54. Now, I'm thinking, how long do I want to continue working? I, I enjoy my job, as I've said previously. I do want to continue my career for a good few years yet, but at some point, I would probably like to reduce my hours. And, you know, I've got a few friends that are the same age as me clearly. And we've spoken about that, of maybe just having a Friday that we could do something together, you know, we do about hill walking and it be great on a Friday, we could just go and, you know we're off, go and grab a few Munros or something, and do some more things that and, and I definitely see more and more clients that don't just, you know, work full time and retire the next day. People will maybe reduce errors, or they'll move into, you know, a second career, and just have that blended working approach. And I definitely see personally that that's something that I will do going forward. And I think that cash flow and giving yourself the confidence and ability in the planning to be able to execute that, I think is really, really powerful. And I would encourage all our clients if they if they haven't experienced it yet to speak to the planner, and engage in that process, because I think it'll definitely help.

Martin: Dave, just to pull you back on that just for the people that are not in Scotland. What the heck is a Munro?

David: A Munro is a wee hill.

Martin: A wee hill, okay, why didn’t you just call it that?

David: So, there's 282 Munros in Scotland. And that's that's mountains over 3,000 feet.

Martin: Blimey, there we go. I learned something today. Excellent.

Fraser:  Yeah. I told you it'd be worthwhile, Martin.

David: Did we have a discussion about lochs and lakes earlier as well?

Martin: We did have a conversation about lochs and lakes. Next weekend, you said you wanted to run around, well I said a lake and you said, you mean a loch. And I said no, we're down south.

Fraser: Clients are being instilled with the confidence of the two Norrie's leadership team that we've got here as well. So, thanks for that, guys. I think as well, just kind of taking that individualistic approach to a financial plan further, it's clear that gifting and, again returning to that theme of the podcast in the spirit of Christmas, the Gift of Gifting, you know, it is something that you do potentially be more proactive with depending on the age and stage of your children who you're wanting to actually gift to. I think it's just really important to also discuss for our clients, there's a whole range of different ways that they can gift or that they can leave assets or wishes for clients as well. You know, it can be anything from a partially exempt transfer, where it falls out with the estate after seven years, so you could be gifting for inheritance tax planning reason and looking at that as well. As well as gifting out of income, which is something that, you know, you seem to be talking about a lot more regularly and consistently in terms of doing that as well. But again, I think it just kind of goes to show that it's what's right for who your beneficiaries are at that moment in time. But when we're talking about that beneficiary piece, the gifting almost being extended to inheritance tax planning as well, that's where the real importance of wills, Power of Attorney, Expression of Wishes to do with the pensions that you have as well. And I assume that's something that you kind of talk about with children as well?

David: Yeah, so all of these things are vitally important. You know, these, these are absolutely concrete, you know, and fundamental to any foundation of a firm financial plan. So regardless of what age you are, you should absolutely have a will because you never know what's what's going to happen. Unfortunately, one of my best friends passed away through COVID. He worked in financial services. He didn't have a will, and it was extremely messy and complex to support his family through that bereavement process and the financial process, as a result of that fundamental thing not been in place. So, a will as a super, super important, Fraser. Equally a Power of Attorney, because that, again can make sure that your wishes are carried out in the event that you're not able to see that through. I would say that's fundamental.

Martin: So, have you talked to your kids about, about your will and what it says and what you want to happen?

David: Yeah, absolutely.

Martin: That's good to hear.

David: Yeah. So again, we, we changed a lot of things as a result of what happened to Linda. So, at that stage, we updated wills, we put power of attorney in place for both of us. And we shared with the kids what was in that and what our wishes were. Now they were still pretty young at that time. But they did understand. And obviously, they saw what had happened to their Mum and they saw that importance. And clearly, I've had conversations, you know, I've got five best friends that I've grew up with all my life, as I say, sadly, one of them passed away. The other four of them didn't have a will in place. And the solicitor that I dealt with around my friend William's estate didn't have a will either. So, and she knew that she needed it, she was an industry, she saw her clients. But she just, it was one of those things she just never got around to dealing with.

Fraser: Yeah.

David: So, I was actively encouraging her, look you need to address this if you do nothing else, go and get this sorted. Because, you know, I was at the stage, I wasn't sleep at night thinking about her and thinking, she's a lovely lady. And she had a young family as well. So, so yeah, these things are very, very easy to do. Very easy to execute, but it's the impact if you don't have them in place, Fraser, that's fundamental. And again, Expression of Wish, it's a piece of paper, that's very, very easy to do. And it can be changed at any point.

Fraser: Particularly with auto enrolment. So, you know, people having pensions from very early on in their careers and having that attached, it's important to make sure that that's all taken care of just for the sake of of how quick it is to complete and carry out as well. I suppose, keeping in line with David's experience with the lawyer, is there anything, Martin, where you think, you know, you've not practised what you've preached? Again, you know, in terms of, you know, potentially maybe later on in life with your financial planning. Or do you feel like you've always been pretty actively engaged on it?

Martin: I'd say generally, I've been pretty actively engaged, like I say my father was a financial advisor. So that was, in my blood, I suppose. You know, we at the weekend, we'd play golf with this solicitor and accountant colleagues that was, so that was a different, different upbringing. So, I was always very aware and very sort of conscious of financial planning. And for me, it's passing it on to the kids as much as possible. Really, I think that's the main thing. I just gonna say, on the on the wills side. The other thing from doing that there's, it's great writing a will, but one thing we've done is a list, which the kids know where it is, of everything we've got, and all the policy numbers and names of the policies and things like who to contact.

Fraser: Go and speak to your uncle Fraser.

Martin: Exactly. But it's, but it's important to do that it just makes life easier. So, I’m dealing with, I've been dealing with an estate for one of my clients, who I thankfully got to write a will only about four, four months before they, before he died. And if he hadn't done it and I hadn't got him to write out a list of everything, it would, it would be an absolute disaster at the moment, because the admin on it is huge. It is huge. He's got a complex estate. And yeah, so it's, it's trying to get those good behaviours and good things in. Again, I said about like my father, because he had knowledge he used, you know he regularly used the £3000 gift allowance that you can do each year. So obviously, you can give away £3000 every year to somebody without worrying about inheritance tax, as a couple that becomes £6000, if you didn't use it last year, that can become £12,000 pas well. So, for most people, that's a decent gift to a, especially if you're talking to a young child. And so, we always took advantage of those things. And that was that was worth doing. And it kept the estate down which is which is good.

Fraser: Yeah. And it's important to note that gifting actually does serve that dual purpose of you know from an inheritance tax planning position and managing the estate. And there's a myriad of things to take into account such as the residence nil rate band, if you're looking at passing the primary residence on to your children as well and your own nil rate band for inheritance tax as well. And I suppose gifting is just quite an important part of the overall inheritance tax planning piece, isn't it?

David: Yeah, and you know, Martin has touched on a few things, and you have as well Fraser, you know, you've got your £250 small gifts to as many people as you want every year, and then you've obviously got marriage. So, there's various gifts that parents, grandparents, etc. and just individuals can do to people who are getting married that take things out of the estate as well. So, so there's lots and lots of things to do. But I think Martin touched on a key point earlier about that list of policies. And that that can't be understated. Again, it's a freebie, a no brainer. And what I've found over the career is there is generally one person that deals with the financial affairs and the other person will rely on them to do that. And it can be quite often when, in the time they really need that help and support, they can be running about trying to find things, and it can be very, very difficult. So just having that discussion, not, as probably Martin and I've had, you know, with, with our wives, around, you know, where assets are, what the what the plan is, but equally the family, about, you know, where you can find things, and the list of everything. It just makes life so much easier. And I think, at a time when things are really difficult, if someone does pass away, knowing their financial wishes, and what they would like to do, can be a comfort, because a lot of people struggle to say, I don't really know what they would want, you know, I don't know what they'd want for a funeral or things like that. And, and if you understand the wishes, it's much easier for the people you've left behind, to try and execute that, and spend the time to try and grieve for you, rather than to deal with all the financial heartache.

Martin: There's also the issue of gifting during the lifetime as it's gonna be a lot more enjoyable than when you're not here to see if you know, we call it a gift, you know, giving with the warm hand or giving with the cold hand. It's a horrible expression of but everyone knows exactly what that means. You know, the, often when people give money away on their death, the recipients don't actually need the money at that point, because they're getting, they're getting into their 60s, 70s themselves. People leave it too long. So, I'm always encouraging clients to bring forward their gifting plans or to do something, every year, just do a bit.

Fraser:  Because of how rewarding it is.

David: And yeah, I've seen that firsthand, unfortunately my mother-in-law passed away a few years ago. Her husband had passed away previous to that, and she purposely she'd, my three daughters are the granddaughters and my wife's got two nephews. And Irene wanted to see the joy of giving her grandkids something at the start of life. So, she much preferred, she could afford it, and she wanted to do it and see them enjoying it and what they would do with the funds. And I think it was a much more positive experience for her. And for the recipients than unfortunately waiting until she'd passed away and, you know, they didn't really want the money. They’d have wanted their Gran and all that that type of emotion. So.

Fraser: Yeah, that kind of comes back to that privileged position that we're in, being in the industry that we're in, potentially some knowledge that we take for granted. And the ability, the experiences that you've seen firsthand, I mean, it really can be invaluable and being able to pass that on to your family must be in so incredibly rewarding too.

I just want to thank you both for being, so you know, radically transparent, so forthcoming, so open about your own personal circumstances as well. And, you know, really, you know, it's, it's motivating for me sitting in the room with you, you know, you can really feel the passion from you both. I appreciate the time and energy that you've put into this as well. And, you know, David, thanks so much for being here today and for talking. I really can't thank you enough.

David: Thanks, Fraser. It’s been a privilege.

Fraser: And similarly, Martin, you know, as much as it pains me, I've enjoyed having you along today, and spending time with you. You know, again, just the candor with which you've spoken, how open and honest you've been, you know, really is appreciated. And, you know, I hope that there's clients listening that will get real value from this as well. So, thank you.

Martin: And that's good. I've enjoyed it. And I assume the checks in the post, Fraser.

Fraser:  Yeah, absolutely.

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