Senior Financial Planner, Keith Dunsmuir, and podcast host, Fraser Kerr, Regional Director consider the power of cashflow modelling, and how a positive savings mentality could transform financial futures.
Fraser Kerr: Hello and welcome back to Wealth Wise the financial planning podcast from abrdn. As you know, I'm your host and my name’s Fraser Kerr, regional director at abrdn in Scotland. And in this series, we aim to bring you the conversations and collective insights to help you achieve more every day. This month we have a change from the programme that we had mentioned previously, with a focus shifting for today's episode based on a recent thought piece and article from abrdn CEO, Stephen Bird. In it, Stephens looking to address what he perceives as a misconception of the world of savings and investments, the slightly less glamorous and appealing image that it has, particularly when compared to those who seek wealth in property, which seems to be particularly favoured here in the UK in comparison to other developed countries. The article focuses on the introduction of a concept of a savings ladder, as opposed to a property ladder. Having that longer term focus on what is important, meaningful, and impactful to you and your loved ones is a powerful ally in weathering any period of uncertainty, and this cannot be truer than in the realm of savings and investments. Today, we're recording this episode from a sunny one George Street in the abrdn head office. And it’s with real excitement that I'm joined with one of the senior planners and real leaders within the financial planning team here in Scotland, Keith Dunsmuir, thanks a lot for being here today. 

Keith Dunsmuir: Thanks very much for having me, Fraser. It's a pleasure. 

Fraser Kerr: Great. And from a personal standpoint, really excited to have Keith on. I think we're coming up to about a decade of working together now Keith?

Keith Dunsmuir: It’d be about that. So yeah, yeah. You're not wearing that well, so it’s hard to tell.

Fraser Kerr: I mean, you do have quite a bit more industry experience than I do.

Keith Dunsmuir: And less hair. 

Fraser Kerr: Yeah, absolutely. No. So thanks, again, for being here today, Keith. And I know this article is something that's really generated a good bit of conversation where we are as a country, our habits, our behaviours. I know you've always been a massive believer in those sort of foundational building blocks, protection, cash, getting those fundamentals in place. And then looking at that culture of savings and investments. I suppose the best way to kind of summarise what Stephen birds trying to talk about as it's actually just all about proactive engagement. And is just trying to meet the challenge of your finances head on, isn't it?

Keith Dunsmuir: Yeah, I think I think, as a country, and I don't know, maybe as a world, we possibly need a reset on how we think about money. Because if you look at the last 10 years, money has been very cheap, it's been dead easy to accumulate debt, that you can service no problem, because it's so cheap. But I think we're in, you know, for the last 12 months, 13, 14 months, we've been in a period where people are getting a fright, because all of a sudden that debt that they had accumulated that was easily manageable is no longer the case. And, you know, we need to get back to having that savings culture. So that we are independent, and, you know, masters, you have your own destiny. 

Fraser Kerr: And I think that's where we need to be. And we've kind of seen it firsthand, as well with, you know, the mortgage rate changes and people's expenditure from one month to the next drastically changing as a result of that. And when you actually think about some of the affordability that's been done by these banking institutions, you kind of do question it because of that pressure that it's put on households and people not living beyond their means, but certainly stretching themselves anyway. 

Keith Dunsmuir: Yeah. But if you think about the reason for that, the reason for that is that inflation is running at levels that are a problem for the country. And it is an effective break on people spending, so it does… now the problem is that there's a lag, isn't there because people are generally on fixed rate mortgages, or that kind of thing. So, it doesn't always kick in right at the point that rates rise. You know, for example, I'm going to have to remortgage at the start of 2025. I am certainly, praying that rates start to tail off. The flip side to that, of course, Fraser is that, you know, interest rates being as low as they were for as long as they were. It's not exactly a great reward for people who have had great behaviours and who have built up savings pots, you know, it is right that these people are rewarded with some interest in their savings. So, you know, it's not just about you know, mortgage costs increasing. It's about striking that balance with some fairness for all. 

Fraser Kerr: Yeah. And that really has that concept of that savings ladder, you are starting with those foundation and progressing up the rungs as you develop and cultivate your wealth and cultivate that position focusing on those longer term objectives. But you need to walk before you can run as well. 

Keith Dunsmuir: You do. But you can't stress enough the importance of having some cash. You know, the car breaks, your roof leaks, and whatever, as you know, you really got to have an emergency fund setting there to provide some protection against storms that come you know, my dad used to say to me that the light at the end of the tunnel is usually a train coming in the other direction. Yeah, but it's true. You know, so it's really important to have those good behaviours and to build up that port to allow you to weather any storm. 

Fraser Kerr: Yeah, no, absolutely. And I just wanted to tease out the main theme from the article, auto enrollment. I mean, you've been in the industry, before auto enrollment, post auto enrollment, how do you see that working in practice? 

Keith Dunsmuir: Well, I think it's massively beneficial. You know, in the long run, because nobody wakes up in the morning and thinks, you know what, I'm going to go and buy a pension today. So, in effect, having that as part of your employment process, building up a pot to deliver income in retirement? Yeah, it's a massive benefit, isn't it? 

Fraser Kerr: Your client banks, probably more of an aging demographic, not as active in the world of work. But something they talk about, you know, their children, and part of their inheritance planning is talking about the wealth that their family unit or accumulate in pensions as well? 

Keith Dunsmuir: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I suppose there's two strands that isn't, you know, people are very, very focused on being able to pass their assets down the family line, you know, in an efficient manner. But the, you know, they also want to see their children being successful and their own rates and doing well and building up their own pension pots and then been able to look after their family. Yeah, you know, so yeah, absolutely. 

Fraser Kerr: Sort of that empowerment piece, as well. I think that kind of brings us on as well, to something that's been getting a lot of publicity recently. It's particularly focused around the state pension. The challenges that the state pension is under government spending pressures are coming more and more into the focus. state pension is obviously a hugely emotive subject as well. How is it that you position that with clients who are accumulating and factoring it into a financial plan? Do you find it something that's harder to legislate for now, than maybe it was earlier in your career? 

Keith Dunsmuir: Well, I think there's two, there's two effective segments of looking at that, you know, clients who are at retirement just now or are looking to be in retirement, then? Absolutely, you're, you're factoring that in, because, you know, it's, it's pretty solid, and you know, what you're gonna get, but definitely for young people, it's, you know, it's a challenge, isn't it? 

Fraser Kerr: I mean, it's certainly something that I don't believe that I'll benefit from a state pension. And I'm kind of looking at it from that perspective, where I need to be in control of my own destiny for want of a better phrase with it. 

Keith Dunsmuir: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I would completely agree with that. And it's, I would describe it as the if you're lucky enough to be in that position. It could be the icing on the cake. 

Fraser Kerr: Yeah. But you wouldn't put sort of all of your stock into relying on it you know. 

Keith Dunsmuir: No, not unless you want to have a horrible horrible retirement, or, or no retirement, which potentially, is what could happen.

Fraser Kerr: Yeah. And that's probably something that we're seeing more and more of as well, isn't it? Gone are the days of people turning 60 Getting state pension, turning 65 Getting state pension, and then just stopping work? Seems to be more of a phased approach, though, isn't it. 

Keith Dunsmuir: It absolutely does. I think I think it's important to note that probably one of the problems with the state pension is that there aren't enough people in work. You know, there's a massive percentage of the population have effectively withdrawn from the labor market, whether that's due to health reasons. So that puts a real strain on the system. In terms of well, how many working people do you need to fund the pensions of the people in retirement? So that's, you know, that that puts a difficult...

Fraser Kerr: Yeah, it’s a huge focus, isn't it? I think that is where it's so important isn’t it? it's just trying to straddle, what people can be responsible for and the input from the state as well. And, you know, again, that's such a powerful message that you kind of talk about with regards to just trying to get people to think of it as an additional extra almost, who are earlier in their career, and then you're building it into that financial plan, as well. It’s hat cash flow modelling piece and trying to bring it to life for clients as well, in terms of..

Keith Dunsmuir: Within the cash flow modelling, I think the state pension is as hugely valuable in the sense that you get very few people that want to work to state pension age, okay, so then they've built up their pot of assets for, for lack of a better description. And they know that those assets need to take them through on full spending until the point that they get state pension. But they know then at that point that the state pension will kick in, and as a couple that could be bringing in £20,000 to the household. And that takes quite a bit of pressure off, of your other assets, because you've got that guaranteed income coming in at that point. And if that was to go in future that, you know, that that, without a doubt, presents problems for younger generations, and they need to get ahead of that and, you know, build assets to look after themselves. 

Fraser Kerr: Yeah, I suppose that's probably where cash flow modelling can still be incredibly valuable for people at that end of the spectrum, you know, almost being able to demonstrate what an extra 100 pounds a month into stocks and shares ISA or what an extra increase the pension can be over…

Keith Dunsmuir: I think, I think the real powerful thing about the cash flow model is it allows you to actually visualize and think about what life would look like and what you know, because everyone wants to have a good retirement, okay, but a good retirement varies from person to person, okay, and it's a very personal thing. So doing the cash flow model, there's a fair bit of life planning involved in that, where you're thinking about the type of things that people want to do into retirement. And then the financial aspect is just a bolt on at the end. Because that's, that is what will allow them to live the retirement that they want to have. And that's where it's really valuable. People can see what they need to do on the back of that, and it actually motivates people to take the action that they need to take to achieve their goals. 

Fraser Kerr: And that's the big thing that you said, the motivation to take action, no one's waking up in the morning thinking, great, today is the day for the pension, I'm going to go... and it’s that trigger and trying to drive that forward isn't. And I think that's probably where the article from Stephen is focusing as well on this concept of a savings ladder. And that's in comparison to the property ladder. I mean, property as a very tangible thing. And it's just very different. It's not as in the ether as potentially some people see savings and investment, isn't it? 

Keith Dunsmuir: Yeah. And fundamentally, people also need somewhere to live. Yeah. You know, and, and so the question there is, you know, do I have a mortgage, and I own a property and at some point, the mortgage may, finish and I own the property, and I wouldn't then have those costs on an ongoing basis, versus renting forever. Yeah. So, you know, it's trying to find that blend. 

Fraser Kerr: Yeah. And do you see with your own clients, not fascination, but certainly a desire for multiple properties, producing different income streams? 

Keith Dunsmuir: Yeah, I think, to be honest, I think the changes made at government level over the last few years are maybe in a way to taking some of that attraction away. Yeah, you know capital gains, additional dwelling supplement all of these other things that really buy into any profitability, you'd have from, you know, rental properties, or that kind of thing. And, of course, once people have done that for a while, they also realise that it's a bit of a pain in the neck. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Because you're responsible for a house that other people live in, and it's got to be on point.

Fraser Kerr: I remember what I was like, as a student in rented accommodation. And I know, you've heard the stories…

Keith Dunsmuir: I dread to think what you were like as a tenant.

Fraser Kerr: Yeah. Let's not get done road as well… So, I know that firsthand. And that's the thing isn't as simple as some people make out as it with regards to that, you know, there's a lot of moving parts. There's insurances that come with it the responsibility as well so.

Keith Dunsmuir: And that that responsibility ramps up all through life. It doesn't let you know by host bear responsibility, children come along with more responsibility. Children start going to university, you're responsible for those costs. 

Fraser Kerr: Yeah. And that's, again, kind of circling back to the financial modelling piece and cash flow. I can remember sitting in meetings with you, and people come to you in this email, had I got enough to retire? How does my situation fair. And it's always about almost an education to people can come with the exact same physical possession. But actually, their outcome is very different. The recommendations are very different. And it’s because people's individual circumstances are so unique.

Keith Dunsmuir: Yeah, and its people's aspirations are different. You know, some people when they retire just don't want to go to work, they don't have any big dreams, the big dream is to not go to work. Whereas other people, when they want to do world cruise, they want to, you know, they have numerous things that they want to do. And cashflow modelling allows us to plot all those events on a chart. And effectively, it demonstrates whether people are able to retire at the point that they want to or whether they need to keep going. 

Fraser Kerr: And probably a big part of it's the fact that it brings it to life a little bit isn’t it, it’s quite a visual thing. Yes, exactly what is yeah, it's not just a plan on paper as Keith Dunn's mural timeline.

Keith Dunsmuir: Deep down, everybody knows that they need to be attending to these things. But the modelling allows them to actually visualise and it also forces people to think and discuss if you're in a partnership, you know, what you want from retirement, and then it's looking at what that costs. And then it's looking at what you've got. And it's just modelling that out. 

Fraser Kerr: And again, that's where that kind of comes back to this the Stephen Bird article, you know, it was in The Times, and it's talking genuinely about people being able to see firsthand what a difference and extra 50 pounds, 100 pounds, whatever that may be. I mean, talking about doubling pension pot contributions, I mean, the significant wealth, that would mean that people were retirement, that would be such a marked difference, isn’t it.

Keith Dunsmuir: It would be a marked difference, and people would be grateful, eventually. And that's, that's part of the challenge for them. Because, something difficult about that is how expensive life is. 

Fraser Kerr: Yeah. And again, that's something that we've covered off in this series before, you know, you do a lot of work with Lizzie Galbraith, our economist, you know, she talks firsthand about the challenges of the cost of living crisis, the pressures on the economy. And, you know, it's hard for people to always be thinking about champagne tomorrow while they're having tap water today.

Keith Dunsmuir: I think that's also even more valid when you're talking about younger know, when you're just when you're trying to get on that housing market, when you've got young children, you know, that there's no doubt that's a challenge. 

Fraser Kerr: How have you tried to, I know, I know, the Bank of mum and dad is very much alive and kicking in the Dunsmuir household.

Keith Dunsmuir: Something that I feel is very important as being on top of your expenditure. So, I get pretty much annually I get, I send my kids a budget planner, I don't expect it back. But it's very important that you understand what you spend. I think that's absolutely vital. And in a very loose sense, you know, my two are 23 and 21. Next week…

Fraser Kerr: Expensive time in the Dunsmuir household.

Keith Dunsmuir: Aw they’re not too bad… So, you know, I give very vague, you know, direction around it in the sense that you try and simplify it, because you could make it very, very complicated and just lose people. So, from a simple perspective, I try and tell the kids that they should be saving a third of their income, every week, every month, whatever that is, they should be spending a third on servicing debt for appreciating assets, not debt for debts sake, and a third of their money, they should be spending having fun. And I think at that stage, if you if, if you stick to that, I think you'd be alright.

Fraser Kerr: That's a really good philosophy to have, you know, again, it's like that way of just simplifying it down into a very accessible and easy to understand position. 

Kieth Dunsmuir: I'm almost certain nobody's doing it… certainly not in my household but the guidance is there.

Fraser Kerr: Yeah, the guidance is there, whether they choose to accept the recommendation or as another matter. And I think that's quite important as well. It kind of comes back to the introduction when we're talking about empowerment, accountability. That's the undercurrent of the article. It's about trying to get people to take that responsibility with input from the government about the benefits of that how it can be advantageous. It is still that same narrative of providing the guidance and the support and the education to do that, but ultimately trying to empower people to, you know, to do that themselves, given them a platform for that as well, isn't it? 

Keith Dunsmuir: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And people need to find that balance between putting money away for tomorrow, whilst enjoying their life. Just know, because the future isn't guaranteed in any way, shape or form. So, it's important, really important to find that balance. 

Fraser Kerr: And it's a tragic reality that that's something that we've both experienced with clients that we've had, you know, where they've worked all their days, accumulate in significant wealth and innovate quite quickly into retirement, you know, suffered tragedy and stuff. And, you know, that was really heartbreaking as well, isn't it? 

Keith Dunsuir: Yeah, I think I think the good thing with the pensions is that that's an effective way of passing assets to your loved one. So, you know, even if you don't, you know, what people generally want to do is they want to have the dream retirement that they've always wanted. But if they don't live long enough to enjoy that they want to ensure that the assets aren't lost to their family and pensions provide a fantastic avenue to provide that. 

Fraser Kerr: Yeah, I do. Always remember that was something that you said to me just when we started working together, and it was around that idea of, you just want your children to be better off than you and Lindsay were, and, you know, to leave them in a better shape with opportunity.

Keith Dunsmuir: It’d be great for the bank of mum and dad to be working the other way. 

Fraser Kerr: Yeah, absolutely. To be receiving deposits, it's only open for withdrawals, though, I think, is the way it’s working just now. 
Your children are obviously in a privileged position where their father is very well educated talking about that third, third, third approach. While, it seems simple, that's a million miles away from the sort of financial education that I got. Do you think there needs to be more involvement from financial literacy standpoint or education standpoint? 

Keith Dunsmuir: Yeah, absolutely. I do. If you think back to school, you know, they spend time telling you what a rhombus is…

Fraser Kerr: But we won’t ask you what a rhombus… I don’t think you actually know.

Keith Dunsmuir: Well maybe… but nothing on how to manage your financial affairs? Yeah, pretty much nothing at all. And yeah, that's, that's, for me. That's a mistake. 

Fraser Kerr: Yeah, I know, that's the thing, leaving school with not having any understanding of that, you know, we're talking about a savings ladder and encouraging those behaviours, but actually, it can be quite the opposite, where people don't have that financial education. So, they end up accruing debt, or not really understanding what the implications of these credit cards are. Pay the loans, 

Keith Dunsmuir: You know, that's it, I mean, debt on asset back purchases, is a good thing, because it's the only way you can buy the assets at the level of cost that you want to have. But people incurring debt for stuff they do not need. You know, that's that can be that has the potential to be disastrous. 

Fraser Kerr: Yeah. And I suppose you see that right through your career as well. And you see people who have earned staggering amounts of money. But as it comes in, it goes out as well. And they come to you near retirement and say, you know, what, what can I do? You know, what's my retirement look like? We’re there now, you know, our options are much more limited. And that's why it's so important to meet it head on, but people spending what they earn and not having those savings really does have a detrimental input. 

Keith Dunsmuir: Yeah, I think generally people do spend what they earn, but the sensible ones and people build in their savings to that overall expenditure. You know, it's a part of a plan, they've got a plan, that they're putting their money away. There might be different pots for different things, you know, obviously, your pensions for long term to provide income in retirement. But, you know, there are various things that people need to save for all throughout their life. And, you know, it's important to build that into your plan. 

Fraser Kerr: Stephens article, he talks about this sort of national obsession with the property market, people focusing heavily on achieving homeownership ambitions, absolutely is where you want to be, but not doing so at the expense of sort of fortifying your finances for after work as well. 

Keith Dunsmuir: Yeah, I think something you hear quite often, is people say, Oh, well, you know, my property is part of my pension. You know, you hear that quite often. And the difficulty with that, is that fundamentally you need somewhere to live, you will always need somewhere to live. And people say, Well, I'm going to downsize now, in my experience, what that looks like, is people sell their house, they buy a smaller house. And the profit between those two moves is then spent getting the smaller house exactly the way they had the larger house. You know, so sometimes you wonder, you know, what, what's the value in that? 

Fraser Kerr: Since I came into the industry, it's very much been investment led, I would say, and I think that's because interest rates have historic We've been so low, you know, talking about a world where people were getting five 6% interest just for being in a bank account. Do you think that led people to maybe go up the rescue slightly with regards to investments? Or do you think that that led to a bit of a cultural shift here in the UK?

Keith Dunsmuir: Yeah, I think possibly after the Truss many budget, people wondered if cautious, was cautious. And so, people maybe thought that a balanced approach might be more suitable for them. I think it depends on the age and stage that you're at, though. And what you're looking to achieve, you know, if you're looking to protect what you've got, then, you know, yeah, especially if it's, especially if it's given you a good rate of return. But if you're striving to a long-term target, well, we know that investing in the markets over the longer term, till now certainly has always delivered better results than holding your funds in cash.  And part of the thing, part of the challenge when people are funding, for example, their pension, and something that people always struggle to get their head around as if you met them last year, and their pension was worth £100,000, and they'd been funding every month, however much they're paying into their pension, and you meet them the following year, and their pension is valued at £90,000. People can often be absolutely distraught. But it's important to stress to them that actually over the longer term, that could be a benefit, because what's effectively happened is that the unit price of the investments that you hold has shrunk, which means that every month your contribution is buying more units, so that when eventually funds increase in value, you've got a lot more units, and you should really see that uplift at that point. And vital within that, of course, that the investments ultimately do perform. But actually, when you're funding, that volatility is a massive benefit when you're funding. 

Fraser Kerr: Yeah, and I think, something that we've touched on the podcast before, but it would be great to get your perspective on. There is a psychological element to the role of financial planning and how you add value. And sometimes is the educational piece of sayong, benefiting from what you've described, that pound cost averaging, here's the benefit of that in the longer term and how it can really add value. Sometimes it's, you know, for example, during COVID, encouraging clients to not take action is sometimes the best course of action as well and reminding them of their long term goals, reminding them of that, why, why are you invested? What are we aiming towards? It's easy for me new sitting in one George Street today to talk about that but…

Keith Dunsmuir: Also, though Fraser, you know, I take a fairly aggressive stance within, you know, my own pension planning. And so, I had to, there's been a few times in the last five years where I've had to have a firm word with myself, yeah, reminding myself that this is a long-term plan, that, you know, we keep going and, and that long term, the volatility and disruption in the market can be a big plus. So, you know, it's not just, it's not necessarily just clients, you're having to have that chat with, you know, when you see big drops, it's difficult, even if you know, is, you know, it's behavioral finance, isn’t it? You're adverse to it. Everyone’s adverse to it.

Fraser Kerr: It’s great having you on Keith, and you're able to open us up to a whole new segment of financial advice for financial advisors, as well. So, a new target market for this year with regards to Wealth Wise, you always do deliver. You know, we keep kind of circling back to it. But there's also intertwined and that's such a big part of behavioral finance. How many times have you seen investments rising, and then because the returns are positive, people are trying to put more money and trying to buy more investment units, whatever it may be. But actually, it's the old adage of what was actually, you know, when the markets are down, it's like you say, you're accumulating more units.

Keith Dunsmuir: Yeah, so the difficulty is that when people are running for the hills in fear, because markets are in freefall, in reality, that's the time to invest. But it does not feel like that at the time. 

Fraser Kerr: Yeah. And that's the thing I was kind of coming to when we were sitting here in one George Street. It's all very well talking about these theories, these behaviours, but when you're in the eye of the storm, you must have had some challenging conversations with people there as well. 

Keith Dunsmuir: Yeah, so the flip side of volatility and accumulation being positive as that volatility and decumulation can be a negative. You know, if you want X amount of income every month, but the unit price of your investments has shrunk, then you're having to sell down more of your investments to generate the income that you want. And that's why in retirement, cash management becomes you know, massive, absolutely massive and the most successful drawdown strategies that, you know, I've been involved I've worked with, is where people will bank profit, and cash, and then live off that cash over a period of time. And then over that period of time, the markets can do what they want, because it's only irrelevant at the point where you need to sell investments to generate income. Yeah. 

Fraser Kerr: You want to be selling from a privileged position as opposed to having to sell and being a forced seller.

Keith Dunsmuir: That’s exactly what it is. And I, you know, and my experience, that is probably the most key factor to successful, successful management of a drawdown. 

Fraser Kerr: Yeah. And how do you find the psychology of people going from that accumulation, money going into pots, building wealth, generating more wealth, to then the other side of the coin, where they're actually stripping money out, their wealth might be getting smaller. I mean, that's a significant mindset shift as well going from being an accumulation to the accumulation, especially if people derive quite a lot of their self-worth and value from working. And that's all of a sudden go on. I mean, it's probably some someone enters the world of work, leaving, it's probably going to be the biggest…

Keith Dunsmuir: Aw without a shadow of a doubt, you know, people talk about buying a property being, you know, your largest ever financial decision. It’s not. It’s managing your retirement with, you know, for most people, I would have said, and, you know, I've worked with people, I've worked with people who I've worked with for a long time, who were at the point where they were ready to retire. And they kind of dangled their foot off the cliff for a while, but they were nervous to make that jump, because turn it off income from employment. It's a massive step. And what people don't want to do is do that, and then have to go back. So that is where cash flow for me really comes alive. because it demonstrates to people that they can afford to do it. And until you're confident that you can afford to do it. It's a nervous… 

Fraser Kerr: Yeah, it's a hugely emotive topic, isn't it people's finances. Thanks for taking the time to be so open and honest, Keith, and also incredibly candid about your own situation as well. 

Keith Dunsmuir: You know, it's been a pleasure. It's always a pleasure, 

Fraser Kerr: but it's been great to have you here. If you want to find out more about any of the topics that Keith and I have discussed today, anything that we've referenced in the previous episodes of well face, and the first instance I would always encourage you to contact your financial planner. However, we would always welcome any correspondence directly here at Wealth Wise and love hearing from our listeners. You can drop us an email at Just a reminder that Wealth Wise is available on all the usual podcast platforms, Spotify, Apple podcast, as well as on the website. Please like and subscribe with any and all feedback welcome, that would be great. 

Join us next time when we're going to be joined by Justin and Dan, two of the fund managers from abrdn’s value in my folio range. They'll be providing us with an insight and data in their lives, their own backgrounds and talking about the responsibility that comes with their role and possession within the organisation. So, until then, thanks again for listening.

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